Best no BS motor oil/filter comparison?
in [Toyota]
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From: jim on 28 Nov 2008 10:43 Mark A wrote: > > "Scott Dorsey" <kludge(a)panix.com> wrote in message > news:ggmgov$eje$1(a)panix2.panix.com... > > The thing is, the cost argument is a very good argument. I change my oil > > every 3,000 miles, which works out to a little bit more often than once a > > month. This adds up to a substantial cost in the end. > > Most people don't change their oil every 3000 miles, but let's look at your > situation. > > If you used synthetic oil and changed every 5000 miles, I would guarantee > you that your oil would be in better shape at 5000 miles with synthetic than > at 3000 miles with conventional. This and most of the rest of the discussion is off the mark. If you change oil at 3000 miles it is because you are interested in what the engine will be like in 300000 miles not what the oil will be like in 5000 miles. Most people don't care what the inside of the engine looks like in 300000 miles - why should they? If you are a typical new car owner you sell the car long before you discover the consequences of the maintenance intervals you use. A 7000 mile oil change interval is adequate for most new car owners. To change any more than that does them no good and will likely only benefit the 3rd owner of the vehicle. As far as I know the type of dirt that gets into oil due to combustion byproducts is not going to be any different for synthetic oil. If you use cheap oil and filter and change every 3000 miles after 300000 miles the engine will be as clean or cleaner on the inside than the day it was driven off the lot. That is because there will not be any accumulation of grime over time. From what I have seen about 90%-98% of vehicles with more than 120K miles are not so clean on the inside. Wipe your finger on the inside of these engines and you no longer have a clean finger. I don't need to know what those cars have had for maintenance, but I'm pretty sure it definitely isn't 3000 mile oil and filter changes. -jim ----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
From: Scott Dorsey on 28 Nov 2008 10:55 In article <1227886676_194(a)isp.n>, jim <"sjedgingN0sp"@m(a)mwt.net> wrote: > >This and most of the rest of the discussion is off the mark. If you change >oil at 3000 miles it is because you are interested in what the engine will >be like in 300000 miles not what the oil will be like in 5000 miles. Most >people don't care what the inside of the engine looks like in 300000 miles - >why should they? If you are a typical new car owner you sell the car long >before you discover the consequences of the maintenance intervals you use. A >7000 mile oil change interval is adequate for most new car owners. To change >any more than that does them no good and will likely only benefit the 3rd >owner of the vehicle. This is the basic issue involved here. For most people, keeping their car in better condition doesn't benefit them any. I think this is a very serious problem; when I was very young my parents taught me to treat my things properly. It seems a lot of people don't remember this. > As far as I know the type of dirt that gets into oil due to combustion >byproducts is not going to be any different for synthetic oil. If you use >cheap oil and filter and change every 3000 miles after 300000 miles the >engine will be as clean or cleaner on the inside than the day it was driven >off the lot. That is because there will not be any accumulation of grime >over time. This is true, BUT it's possible that the synthetic oil can hold more combustion byproducts in suspension for longer. And, for a lot of modern engines that are built to tight tolerances, combustion byproducts may not be the primary failure mechanism of the oil. Of course, you don't know if this is the case for your engine without doing an oil analysis. > From what I have seen about 90%-98% of vehicles with more than 120K miles >are not so clean on the inside. Wipe your finger on the inside of these >engines and you no longer have a clean finger. I don't need to know what >those cars have had for maintenance, but I'm pretty sure it definitely >isn't 3000 mile oil and filter changes. This is sadly true. However, I will say that if you pull the valve covers on MY cars and run your finger around, it will come back clean, after 270,000 miles and 480,000 miles on each. At least, it did the last time I did valve adjustment on them which was a few months ago. I understand this is not typical, but I don't want a typical car. I want a car that runs well for a long time and doesn't cost much to keep running. I will attribute the cleanliness of the engine more to regular oil changes every 3,000 miles than to the use of the synthetics. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
From: SMS on 28 Nov 2008 13:22 jim wrote: > This and most of the rest of the discussion is off the mark. If you change > oil at 3000 miles it is because you are interested in what the engine will > be like in 300000 miles not what the oil will be like in 5000 miles. Not really. Every independent analysis of oil change intervals, based on oil analysis, shows no benefit in 3000 mile oil changes in terms of exceeding the ability of the oil to lubricate, suspend particulates, or become acidic. 3000 mile is not based on anything, it's a holdover from the 1960's. Won't 500 mile oil changes make your engine last even longer than 3000 miles? The only time I recall it being used on a relatively modern car was on one vehicle that was a notorious oil burner, and 3000 mile changes were because so many owners never checked their oil and found their cars with less than 1 quart of oil left after 5000 miles. > people don't care what the inside of the engine looks like in 300000 miles - > why should they? If you are a typical new car owner you sell the car long > before you discover the consequences of the maintenance intervals you use. I'm not sure what "typical" is, but in my circles people keep their cars for 10-20 years. My newest vehicle is 7 years old, the oldest one is 12 years old. No one has ever had engine problems based on using conventional oil at the manufacturer's recommended interval of 5000-7500 miles. The 3000 mile interval was back in the days of non-detergent motor oil that was poor at particulate suspension. Today's conventional oil isn't crude oil put into 1 quart bottles, it's a highly engineered product.
From: jim on 28 Nov 2008 14:26 SMS wrote: > > jim wrote: > > > This and most of the rest of the discussion is off the mark. If you change > > oil at 3000 miles it is because you are interested in what the engine will > > be like in 300000 miles not what the oil will be like in 5000 miles. > > Not really. Every independent analysis of oil change intervals, based on > oil analysis, shows no benefit in 3000 mile oil changes in terms of > exceeding the ability of the oil to lubricate, suspend particulates, or > become acidic. OK so you know how to completely ignore what was written. Well done. Yes I know at 3000 miles there will be no measurable difference. After 5000 miles you won't be able to tell any difference.... > > 3000 mile is not based on anything, it's a holdover from the 1960's. No my comments were based on my own independent oil tests. And my post didn't include any recommendations for number of miles between oil changes. > Won't 500 mile oil changes make your engine last even longer than 3000 > miles? Did I say anything about my engine lasting longer. I have already commented on your inability to read. Why would anybody think that someone who has reading comprehension problems knows anything about oil? -jim >The only time I recall it being used on a relatively modern car > was on one vehicle that was a notorious oil burner, and 3000 mile > changes were because so many owners never checked their oil and found > their cars with less than 1 quart of oil left after 5000 miles. > > > people don't care what the inside of the engine looks like in 300000 miles - > > why should they? If you are a typical new car owner you sell the car long > > before you discover the consequences of the maintenance intervals you use. > > I'm not sure what "typical" is, but in my circles people keep their cars > for 10-20 years. My newest vehicle is 7 years old, the oldest one is 12 > years old. No one has ever had engine problems based on using > conventional oil at the manufacturer's recommended interval of 5000-7500 > miles. The 3000 mile interval was back in the days of non-detergent > motor oil that was poor at particulate suspension. Today's conventional > oil isn't crude oil put into 1 quart bottles, it's a highly engineered > product. ----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
From: SMS on 28 Nov 2008 14:31
jim wrote: > > SMS wrote: >> jim wrote: >> >>> This and most of the rest of the discussion is off the mark. If you change >>> oil at 3000 miles it is because you are interested in what the engine will >>> be like in 300000 miles not what the oil will be like in 5000 miles. >> Not really. Every independent analysis of oil change intervals, based on >> oil analysis, shows no benefit in 3000 mile oil changes in terms of >> exceeding the ability of the oil to lubricate, suspend particulates, or >> become acidic. > > OK so you know how to completely ignore what was written. Well done. Yes I know > at 3000 miles there will be no measurable difference. After 5000 miles you won't > be able to tell any difference.... Sorry, what was written was a little convoluted. Yes, the person doing 3000 oil changes is ignoring an enormous body of evidences that such changes are wasteful in both money and resources, for absolutely no benefit versus 5000 mile changes (and probably 7500 mile changes as well). Thankfully the 3000 mile myth is almost dead. Go to Europe and anyone that tried to promote 3000 mile oil changes would be looked at like they were from another planet. Similarly using synthetic oil for 3000 or 5000 mile oil changes provides no benefit in the vast majority of vehicles operated in temperate climates, unless they are high-performance vehicles where the manufacturer requires synthetics. |