Who was it who mentioned Fram oil filters and dropping oil pressure?
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From: clare on 25 Nov 2009 22:56 On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:20:30 -0500, Nate Nagel <njnagel(a)roosters.net> wrote: >hls wrote: >> >> "Nate Nagel" <njnagel(a)roosters.net> wrote in message >> news:hei31712n6l(a)news7.newsguy.com... >>> hls wrote: >>>> >>>> "E. Meyer" <epmeyer50(a)gmail.com> wrote in message >>>> news:C7313DDB.14358%epmeyer50(a)gmail.com... >>>>> Everybody is >>>>> arguing antique anecdotal evidence and apparently no one has any actual >>>>> facts to contribute. For all we know from this discussion, they had >>>>> one bad >>>>> production run in 1994 and everybody is still talking about it. >>>> >>>> >>>> You got that right! >>> >>> meanwhile Wix, Purolator, and Champion Labs have NEVER had a bad run >>> significant enough to register on our collective radar screens. 'nuff >>> said. >>> >>> nate >> >> The important point, for me, was that so many people jump on this bandwagon >> and there is very little or no objective data on the subject. This >> business of cutting >> open filters and declaring them good or no good got a lot of this >> started, and it >> had no relevance at all. > >My prejudice against Fram is not based on that, but on other factors. > >1) Back in around 1996/1997 or so, I bought a '67 Dart. One thing I did >not like about the car was that when I'd start it first thing in the >morning, it would rattle and clank and the oil light would take a long >time to go out. (it'd quiet down and run silky smooth as soon as the >oil light went out, so it was obviously an oil pressure issue.) The >first time I changed the oil, I just went to the corner FLAPS and bought >whatever they offered - turned out to be a Wix filter. The filter I >took off was a Fram. Ever after, whenever I started it, it'd knock once >or twice and immediately run quiet, and the oil pressure light would go >out almost immediately. After asking online I found that this was not >uncommon. Subsequently my then-girlfriend bought a '69 Valiant with the >same engine and it exhibited the same symptoms and responded to the same >fix. > Funny thing, a slant six has mechanical lifters, so low oil pressure does not cause the light clatter that say, a Chevy six, or a 318 exhibits. Rod knock on startup IS SERIOUS. >2) Lots of anecdotal reports of Frams failing at the crimp between the >base and can on a cold start on watercooled VW engines (which use heavy >oil - recommended xW40 or xW50 - and can develop 100 PSI or more on a >cold start, I've seen this myself on cars equipped with an oil pressure >gauge) I never experienced this myself, as by the time I got my first >VW I was already soured on Fram by my slant six experiences. In fact, I >ran a Canton/Mecca filter on my Scirocco because I thought I was going >to keep that car forever (and in retrospect, I should have.) > >nate
From: clare on 25 Nov 2009 22:58 On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:03:30 -0600, jim <"sjedgingN0Sp"@m(a)mwt,net> wrote: > > >Ed White wrote: >> >> On Nov 25, 8:33 am, "hls" <h...(a)nospam.nix> wrote: >> > "Nate Nagel" <njna...(a)roosters.net> wrote in message >> > >> > news:hei31712n6l(a)news7.newsguy.com... >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > hls wrote: >> > >> > >> "E. Meyer" <epmeye...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message >> > >>news:C7313DDB.14358%epmeyer50(a)gmail.com... >> > >>> Everybody is >> > >>> arguing antique anecdotal evidence and apparently no one has any actual >> > >>> facts to contribute. For all we know from this discussion, they had one >> > >>> bad >> > >>> production run in 1994 and everybody is still talking about it. >> > >> > >> You got that right! >> > >> > > meanwhile Wix, Purolator, and Champion Labs have NEVER had a bad run >> > > significant enough to register on our collective radar screens. 'nuff >> > > said. >> > >> > > nate >> > >> > The important point, for me, was that so many people jump on this bandwagon >> > and there is very little or no objective data on the subject. This business >> > of cutting >> > open filters and declaring them good or no good got a lot of this started, >> > and it >> > had no relevance at all.- Hide quoted text - >> > >> > - Show quoted text - >> >> I disagree. Examining the components that make up a filter is a first >> step. You might not be able to determine the actual quality of the >> filter material, but you certianly can see a major difference in >> quality between a regular grade FRAM filter and a WIX or Motorcraft >> filter. I've cut open numerous used filter and more than once I've >> seen FRAMs with detached end caps. The regular grade FRAM filter may >> be adequate for the job, but a look at the insides of regular grade >> FROM filters convined me that they are not as good as filters from >> Motorcraft or Wix that have comparable (or even lower) prices. > >The fact is it has been scientifically proven that Fram filters do a >better job than Wix for removing the smallest particles from the oil. >That was not determined by cutting filters open but by doing tests on >the oil after many miles of service. And the effects of not filtering >the finest particles takes many years and many miles to show up. The >look of the filter may be important to you, but many taxi and delivery >services use fram filters because they are more interested in the >results than what the filter looks like on the inside. > > >> >> FRAM does not claim to have particuarly good filtering efficiency, and >> they do appear to have cut corners on the interior construction. So in >> my mind the question is not if FRAM filters are OK, the question is, >> Given that FRAM filters are not particualrly cheap, why would I buy >> one? > >Because tests have shown they do remove smaller particles than wix or >purolator. That can be a good thing or a bad thing. If you have an old >beater that is loaded up with an accumulation of those fines plus a worn >out oil pump from many years of pumping those small particles putting a >Fram filter on the engine can lead to trouble. > >-jim They might filter the fine stuff when they stay together, but when the paper end comes off the filter media, it dilters NOTHING. And they DO come off. Not every one, but WAY too many.
From: clare on 25 Nov 2009 23:03 On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 20:08:11 -0600, jim <"sjedgingN0Sp"@m(a)mwt,net> wrote: > >Maybe yes if in fact that was the valid choice one faced. But unless >you are one of those guys on the internet with beater who swears he >would never use a Fram that isn't going to be the choice you're faced >with. That business of running with no oil pressure doesn't happen to >cars in good condition. If it did you can bet the dealerships would be >deluged with complaints because lots late model cars have Fram filters >on them and you can bet customers would be complaining. You'd be surprized how long an engine can run with NO OIL AT ALL, particularly with solid lifters. - but there IS damage being done. Do it too often, and the engine WILL fail. >> Taxi service may actually be a good application for Fram filters as they >> don't do many cold starts per mile compared to regular private use vehicles. Often several thousand miles without a cold start in large metro area cabs. > > I've never seen any evidence that cold starts are a problem. I have >seen plenty of slant sixes with Fram filters and not a single one had >that problem. If there was a problem I would think the auto makers >would be concerned about engine damage from using Fram filters. But the >automakers aren't complaining about harm to new engines. The complaints >are all coming from guys on the internet with old worn out engines. > > And what's with this cutting filters open and getting all panicked when >you see cardboard on the end of the filters? I used to have a chevy 283 >with a canister filter. Every filter I put on that engine had cardboard >on both ends of the filter. For 30 years I saw that cardboard on every >filter I put on and every one I took off and not once did it look like >that was something I should be concerned about. Seemed like pretty >sturdy design to me. Aircraft filters are cuy open at EVERY oil change to check for metal etc - and to verify the filtering capability as a secondary issue. > > >-jim > > > >> >> nate >> >> -- >> replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. >> http://members.cox.net/njnagel
From: clare on 25 Nov 2009 23:06 On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 21:53:12 -0500, Hachiroku ???? <Trueno(a)e86.GTS> wrote: >On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 00:43:54 -0500, clare wrote: > >> On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 22:27:36 -0500, Hachiroku ???? <Trueno(a)e86.GTS> wrote: >> >>>On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 22:16:16 -0500, clare wrote: >>> >>>> On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 18:58:15 -0600, "hls" <hls(a)nospam.nix> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>"E. Meyer" <epmeyer50(a)gmail.com> wrote in message >>>>>news:C7313DDB.14358%epmeyer50(a)gmail.com... >>>>>> Everybody is >>>>>> arguing antique anecdotal evidence and apparently no one has any >>>>>> actual facts to contribute. For all we know from this discussion, >>>>>> they had one bad >>>>>> production run in 1994 and everybody is still talking about it. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>You got that right! >>>> Been a lot more than one "bad run", both before and after 1994. >>>> >>>> Fram plant (allied signal) in Canada was about 35 miles from here and >>>> an aquaintance several years back used to work there. >>>> >>>> He jumped ship to Kralinator IIRC, have lost contact with him since >>> >>>Oh, yeah. You're Canadian eh. Did you once say you're near Kitchener? >>> >>> >> In Waterloo actually - can't tell the difference driving through. Home of >> the Blackberry. Stratford is just down the road - home of Fram/Allied >> Signal Canadian operations (and Kralinator too) Right next to Cambridge, >> home of the Corolla and a hop skip and a jump from Ingersol's CAMI plant >> and Woodstock's RAV4 and Hino plants. > >I knew Cambridge was the home of the Corolla (and Matrix and Pontiac >Vibe), but i didn't know there was a Hino plant! How long has that been >there? No Vibes out of Cambridge as far as I know, and the Hino plant has been there 2 or 3 years. > >When I was married to my wife, we used to go stay at her sister's house >in Oshawa...with an upstairs balcony view of the Oshawa Assembly plant. >There is a lot of the automotive industry, both the big guns, and the >supplers in Ontario. At least there was until Bush 1 signed the Fair Trade >Agreement. Then all the suppliers that had Canadian plants closed them up, >since they didn't have to meet the Canadian 1/3 content laws anymore... Kitchener has lost the vast majority of it's automotive parts manufacturing, and BOTH tire plants. Kitchener Frame, formerly Budd Automotive, just closed for good last year. Almost lost lear seating this year.. Lost most of the tool and die businresses too. > >
From: Hachiroku ハチロク on 26 Nov 2009 00:34
On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 23:06:13 -0500, clare wrote: > No Vibes out of Cambridge as far as I know, and the Hino plant has been > there 2 or 3 years. The Vibe was being built on the same line as the Matrix. We used to see them on the trucks with the..um...Matrices (?) being delivered! >> >>When I was married to my wife, we used to go stay at her sister's house >>in Oshawa...with an upstairs balcony view of the Oshawa Assembly plant. >>There is a lot of the automotive industry, both the big guns, and the >>supplers in Ontario. At least there was until Bush 1 signed the Fair >>Trade Agreement. Then all the suppliers that had Canadian plants closed >>them up, since they didn't have to meet the Canadian 1/3 content laws >>anymore... > > Kitchener has lost the vast majority of it's automotive parts > manufacturing, and BOTH tire plants. Kitchener Frame, formerly Budd > Automotive, just closed for good last year. Almost lost lear seating this > year.. Lost most of the tool and die businresses too. Both my Sister in law and her husband lost real good jobs when the Fair Trade Agreement came on line. I don't know what...er, was it Mulroney at the time? was thinking... |