Bias Against Domestic Cars
in [Toyota]
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From: dr_jeff on 19 Nov 2009 21:00 Mike Hunter wrote: > One thing is for certain, ones sees a lot of Scions sitting on the used car > lots of other brand dealership. Apparently the previous owner chose not to > buy another Scion, for some reason. I see a lot of Fords and Chevies at Toyota dealerships, too. So what? > "Derek Gee" <dgeeSPAMSUCKS(a)twmi.INVALID.rr.com> wrote in message > news:4b04a86d$0$5092$9a6e19ea(a)unlimited.newshosting.com... >> "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly(a)my-deja.com> wrote in message >> news:f152deef-37b4-4a7e-85d7-5f85bd895e61(a)m7g2000prd.googlegroups.com... >>> >>> Derek Gee wrote: >>>> "Andrew Rossmann" <andysnewsreply(a)no_junk.comcast.net> wrote in message >>>> news:MPG.256cdade1ef3a1b9896cc(a)news.eternal-september.org... >>>> >>>>> CR only reports what their annual survey says. If there is any bias, >>>>> it's in the subscribers. >>>> There's always bias in humans, but a better survey would do a better job >>>> in >>>> trying to design it out of the polling. The JD Power data seems better >>>> quality. >>> JD Powers is worse and has shown more bias in favor of luxury cars and >>> cars favored by senior citizens, whether or not those vehicles were >>> reliable (Lincoln) or not (Jaguar before Ford bought them). >> Not so. They have a much more accurate survey questionaire than the CR >> one. >> >>>>> Also, don't forget that the quality of the dealership can go a long >>>>> way >>>>> toward how 'reliable' you think your car is. >>> Then I'd expect luxury car brands to fare better because of their >>> dealerships, so why have Cadlllac and Rolls-Royce long fared so poorly >>> in reliability ratings? >> Where have you seen any published reliability data on RR? They aren't in >> any published survey I've ever seen. >> >>> And Toyota's brand with the highest >>> reliability is budget Scion, not luxury Lexus. >> Wrong, Scion is WAY below industry average in the 2009 JD Power >> Dependability study! >> >> http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pdf/2009043.pdf >> >> Derek >> > >
From: dr_jeff on 19 Nov 2009 21:01 Mike Hunter wrote: > The difference is huge! JD Powers quantifies its data, CR does not. Please show us that the numbers that show up are meaningful and reliable. jeff > > "dr_jeff" <utz(a)msu.edu> wrote in message > news:JOKdnUJqm4PvM5nWnZ2dnUVZ_t9i4p2d(a)giganews.com... >> Derek Gee wrote: >>> "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly(a)my-deja.com> wrote in message >>> news:f152deef-37b4-4a7e-85d7-5f85bd895e61(a)m7g2000prd.googlegroups.com... >>>> Derek Gee wrote: >>>>> "Andrew Rossmann" <andysnewsreply(a)no_junk.comcast.net> wrote in message >>>>> news:MPG.256cdade1ef3a1b9896cc(a)news.eternal-september.org... >>>>> >>>>>> CR only reports what their annual survey says. If there is any bias, >>>>>> it's in the subscribers. >>>>> There's always bias in humans, but a better survey would do a better >>>>> job in >>>>> trying to design it out of the polling. The JD Power data seems better >>>>> quality. >>>> JD Powers is worse and has shown more bias in favor of luxury cars and >>>> cars favored by senior citizens, whether or not those vehicles were >>>> reliable (Lincoln) or not (Jaguar before Ford bought them). >>> Not so. They have a much more accurate survey questionaire than the CR >>> one. >> How is the JD Power survey more accurate? Has there been a study on this? >> It may look better on paper, but it may not better in real life. >> >> Jeff > >
From: Derek Gee on 19 Nov 2009 21:04 <clare(a)snyder.on.ca> wrote in message news:mu99g5hv5h4cfi4v5g24jucdem8lgeoudo(a)4ax.com... > On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 22:28:30 -0500, "Derek Gee" > <dgeeSPAMSUCKS(a)twmi.INVALID.rr.com> wrote: > >>"hls" <hls(a)nospam.nix> wrote in message >>news:AtudnXjE59f1uZ7WnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d(a)giganews.com... >>> >>> "Derek Gee" <dgeeSPAMSUCKS(a)twmi.INVALID.rr.com> wrote in message >>>> >>>> They have. Look back through the archives at their ratings for the >>>> Ford >>>> Probe and Mazda 626. They were built in the same US plant, using >>>> largely >>>> the same parts, yet the Mazda was always given the higher reliability >>>> rating. This was one of the first clues that I had that something was >>>> wrong at CR. >>>> >>>> Derek >>> >>> Just a point...."largely the same parts" may not be the same as >>> equivalent >>> vehicles. >> >>The only differences were the outer skins. They were the same platform >>underneath. >> >>> I am not defending CR.. I have held them up to doubt many times on other >>> types >>> of products, where they clearly had no idea what they were talking >>> about. >> >>I've always worried about a company that reviews toasters rating >>sophisticated devices, particularly consumer electronics and automobiles. >>But they do have the advantage of being advertisement free... >> >>Derek >> > > The same "platform" does not mean the same floorpan, or even > necessarily the same wheelbase or track. It means it shares a > "layout". Not so. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_platform D
From: Derek Gee on 19 Nov 2009 21:16 "dr_jeff" <utz(a)msu.edu> wrote in message news:JOKdnUJqm4PvM5nWnZ2dnUVZ_t9i4p2d(a)giganews.com... > Derek Gee wrote: >> "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly(a)my-deja.com> wrote in message >> news:f152deef-37b4-4a7e-85d7-5f85bd895e61(a)m7g2000prd.googlegroups.com... >>> >>> Derek Gee wrote: >>>> "Andrew Rossmann" <andysnewsreply(a)no_junk.comcast.net> wrote in message >>>> news:MPG.256cdade1ef3a1b9896cc(a)news.eternal-september.org... >>>> >>>>> CR only reports what their annual survey says. If there is any bias, >>>>> it's in the subscribers. >>>> There's always bias in humans, but a better survey would do a better >>>> job in >>>> trying to design it out of the polling. The JD Power data seems better >>>> quality. >>> JD Powers is worse and has shown more bias in favor of luxury cars and >>> cars favored by senior citizens, whether or not those vehicles were >>> reliable (Lincoln) or not (Jaguar before Ford bought them). >> >> Not so. They have a much more accurate survey questionaire than the CR >> one. > > How is the JD Power survey more accurate? Has there been a study on this? > It may look better on paper, but it may not better in real life. From what I've been able to gather about the IQS and VDS surveys, it's a 44 point questionaire with specific questions about stuff like handling, braking, seats, audio systems etc. It's better than just asking which areas did you have a "problem" with and asking the user to check a single box. Here's some very specific criticism of the CR methodology I recently ran across: http://www.truedelta.com/pieces/shortcomings.php http://www.truedelta.com/pieces/cr_survey.php http://www.truedelta.com/pieces/newdots.php http://www.truedelta.com/pieces/anomalies.php Derek
From: dr_jeff on 19 Nov 2009 21:19
Derek Gee wrote: > "dr_jeff" <utz(a)msu.edu> wrote in message > news:JOKdnUJqm4PvM5nWnZ2dnUVZ_t9i4p2d(a)giganews.com... >> Derek Gee wrote: >>> "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly(a)my-deja.com> wrote in message >>> news:f152deef-37b4-4a7e-85d7-5f85bd895e61(a)m7g2000prd.googlegroups.com... >>>> Derek Gee wrote: >>>>> "Andrew Rossmann" <andysnewsreply(a)no_junk.comcast.net> wrote in message >>>>> news:MPG.256cdade1ef3a1b9896cc(a)news.eternal-september.org... >>>>> >>>>>> CR only reports what their annual survey says. If there is any bias, >>>>>> it's in the subscribers. >>>>> There's always bias in humans, but a better survey would do a better >>>>> job in >>>>> trying to design it out of the polling. The JD Power data seems better >>>>> quality. >>>> JD Powers is worse and has shown more bias in favor of luxury cars and >>>> cars favored by senior citizens, whether or not those vehicles were >>>> reliable (Lincoln) or not (Jaguar before Ford bought them). >>> Not so. They have a much more accurate survey questionaire than the CR >>> one. >> How is the JD Power survey more accurate? Has there been a study on this? >> It may look better on paper, but it may not better in real life. > > From what I've been able to gather about the IQS and VDS surveys, it's a 44 > point questionaire with specific questions about stuff like handling, > braking, seats, audio systems etc. It's better than just asking which > areas did you have a "problem" with and asking the user to check a single > box. > > Here's some very specific criticism of the CR methodology I recently ran > across: > > http://www.truedelta.com/pieces/shortcomings.php > > http://www.truedelta.com/pieces/cr_survey.php > > http://www.truedelta.com/pieces/newdots.php > > http://www.truedelta.com/pieces/anomalies.php > > > > Derek > > The website is a competitor to CR for car data. How reliable do you think its criticisms are? |