From: C. E. White on 16 Nov 2009 11:42 I came across what I consider another case of bias against domesic vehicles. See: http://www.forbes.com/2009/11/11/clunker-cars-repairs-lifestyle-vehicles-clunkers_slide_2.html Supposedly the Forbes editiors picked these vehicle based on COnsumer Reports data. I looked up the CR data and here are my comments: -Chevrolet Colorado -Segment: Pickup trucks -Reliability Rating: More than 100% worse than average -Overall Consumer Reports Rating: 41 -Five-year cost of repairs: $798 Forbes is using the highly unreliable Consumer Report reliability information. However, at least for this particular vehicle, the rating may be justified. Only the Ranger and Mazda B Series had a lower overall scores in the small truck category, and at least they had average reliability. See GMC Canyon below... -Chrysler Sebring Convertible -Segment: Convertibles -Consumer Reports Reliability Rating: More than 90% worse than average -Overall Consumer Reports Rating: 45 -Five-year cost of repairs: $770 Another vehicle that appears to deserve to be on the list.... -Chrysler Town & Country -Segment: Wagons/minivans -Reliability Rating: More than 100% worse than average -Overall Consumer Reports Rating: 64 -Five-year cost of repairs: $807 -Dodge Grand Caravan -Segment: Wagons/minivans -Reliability Rating: More than 100% worse than average -Overall Consumer Reports Rating: 60 -Five-year cost of repairs: $807 These are essentially the same vehicle -why list them separately? And why not list the Volkwagon Routan which is essentially the same vehicle and has almost exactly the same ratings and reliability as the T&C. -Ford F-250 -Segment: Pickup trucks -Reliability Rating: More than 100% worse than average -Overall Consumer Reports Rating: 37 -Five-year cost of repairs: $969 The Forbes article doesn't calrify that the Consumer Reports Rating was only for the 4WD Turbodiesel version, and even then, that rating was based on the prior generation engine from 2008. So Forbes is smearing all F250s based on a two year old diesel engine option that is sold in less than 30% of the vehicles...... -GMC Canyon -Segment: Pickup trucks -Reliability Rating: More than 100% worse than average -Overall Consumer Reports Rating: 41 -Five-year cost of repairs: $718 This is the same vehicle as the Chevrolet Colorada.They should have been listed together. -Jaguar XF -Segment: Luxury sedans -Reliability Rating: More than 100% worse than average -Overall Consumer Reports Rating: 72 -Five-year cost of repairs: $1,301 This one is seems very unfair. While it is true that the XF got a poor reliability rating, it was no worse than the "recommended" Lexus GS AWD which is not on the list of ten clunkers to avoid? Why not? -Lincoln MKS -Segment: Luxury sedans -Reliability Rating: More than 80% worse than average -Overall Consumer Reports Rating: 73 -Five-year cost of repairs: $869 The Lincoln MKS and the Lexus GS AWD were rated almost idenitcally (overall rating 75 for the GS, 73 for MKS) and both got the exact same poor relibaility rating. Yet the GS is "Recommended" and the MKS shows up as a clunker to avoid. Where is the fariness in that? The BMW 535i, and Cadillac STS also showed up as having poor reliability, yet they are not clunkers. Hmmmm.... -Mercedes-Benz GL450 -Segment: Luxury SUVs -Reliability Rating: More than 100% worse than average -Overall Consumer Reports Rating: 77 -Five-year cost of repairs: $1,501 -Volkswagen Touareg -Segment: Luxury SUVs -Reliability Rating: More than 100% worse than average Overall Consumer Reports Rating: 66 -Five-year cost of repairs: $907 I can't really argue with the last two, both had poor reliability rating and high prices. However, it should be noted there were others in the class that had the same poor reliability ratings and worse overall scorces, but they didn't make the list. I wonder how they picked which ones belonged? ------ I guess my complaints come down to these: In two case Forbes listed vehicles that were essentially twins separately, making it appear as if more US vehicles were really bad. In the case of the Chrysler T&C Minivan, they listed it (and the Dodge equivalent), but did not list the essentially identical VW Routan. If they had followed form, it seems that the Routan would have been listed separately, thereby pushing another vheicle off the lsit. Forbes included the Lincoln MKS as a clunker, but omitted the Lexus GS AWD which had almost the same ratings and predicted reliability. Why? Also, when you look at the data for the MKS, most components got an excellent rating. Only body harware got the much worse than average rating. And in fact, the AWD MKS got as good or better reliability ratings than the AWD GS in every category except body hardware (and before 2008, the GS had poor body hardware). And the MKS relibaility was rated based only on the 2009 model. Usually CR doesn't predict reliability for new models, yet despite reliability data that actually looks better than the Lexus GS, they gave the MKS a worse predicted reliability rating. This seems really unfair. CR is predicting that a vehicle with a poor relibailty history will have better reliability than a model which in its frst year of production, already had better reliability rating as determined by their own survey.....hmmmm... They listed the F250 as a clunker, but only a very specific model of the F250 qualified as having poor reliability (turbodiesel 4WD model, based on results from two years ago). Regular F250's had an average reliability rating. CR lists the relability for a 2010 F250 as "new model." So it seem Forbes was unfair in including this in a list of new vehicle to avoid if they are using the CR data... It seems to me that Forbes picked 10 vehicle out of about 30 that could have qualified as clunkers. By listing twins separately they moved some deserving vehicles off the list. And the 10 listed were not the ten worst if you go solely by CRs ratings. So what were they? The ten that Forbes editiors liked the least? I could live with this if Forbes provided a more completel list. However, by listing vehicles like the Lincoln MKS and Jaguar MKS, while omitting the Lexus GS, I have to wonder if they aren't showing bias towards Lexus. I can't see any justification for listing the Lincoln MKS and not also including the Lexus GS. Ed
From: larry moe 'n curly on 16 Nov 2009 14:08 C. E. White wrote: > > I came across what I consider another case of bias against domesic > vehicles. See: > > http://www.forbes.com/2009/11/11/clunker-cars-repairs-lifestyle-vehicles-clunkers_slide_2.html > > Supposedly the Forbes editiors picked these vehicle based on COnsumer > Reports data. I looked up the CR data and here are my comments: So why hasn't CR shown any bias when they've tested American and Japanese twins, like the Toyota Matrix and Pontiac Vibe or the Toyota Corolla and Geo Prizm? http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3312/3220352935_5d568cf3dd_o.gif http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3350/3220407679_f58946b017_o.gif http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3091/3220291121_cd8eb87a00_o.gif
From: hls on 16 Nov 2009 14:28 "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly(a)my-deja.com> wrote in message news:c71fcfc7-ae26-43ee-845f-9678880ecd80(a)2g2000prl.googlegroups.com... > > > C. E. White wrote: >> >> I came across what I consider another case of bias against domesic >> vehicles. See: >> >> http://www.forbes.com/2009/11/11/clunker-cars-repairs-lifestyle-vehicles-clunkers_slide_2.html >> >> Supposedly the Forbes editiors picked these vehicle based on COnsumer >> Reports data. I looked up the CR data and here are my comments: > > So why hasn't CR shown any bias when they've tested American and > Japanese twins, like the Toyota Matrix and Pontiac Vibe or the Toyota > Corolla and Geo Prizm? Statistics can be used to prejudice almost anything, I guess.
From: Mike Hunter on 16 Nov 2009 14:35 Seems to me CR would have better served its subscribe if it had informed them they could save a lot of money by purchasing the domestic version of those vehicles rather than the Jap twin. "hls" <hls(a)nospam.nix> wrote in message news:EeCdnYE2Jad5OpzWnZ2dnUVZ_rKdnZ2d(a)giganews.com... > > "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly(a)my-deja.com> wrote in message > news:c71fcfc7-ae26-43ee-845f-9678880ecd80(a)2g2000prl.googlegroups.com... >> >> >> C. E. White wrote: >>> >>> I came across what I consider another case of bias against domesic >>> vehicles. See: >>> >>> http://www.forbes.com/2009/11/11/clunker-cars-repairs-lifestyle-vehicles-clunkers_slide_2.html >>> >>> Supposedly the Forbes editiors picked these vehicle based on COnsumer >>> Reports data. I looked up the CR data and here are my comments: >> >> So why hasn't CR shown any bias when they've tested American and >> Japanese twins, like the Toyota Matrix and Pontiac Vibe or the Toyota >> Corolla and Geo Prizm? > > > Statistics can be used to prejudice almost anything, I guess.
From: dr_jeff on 16 Nov 2009 20:35
Mike Hunter wrote: > Seems to me CR would have better served its subscribe if it had informed > them they could save a lot of money by purchasing the domestic version of > those vehicles rather than the Jap twin. They have. Jeff |