Bias Against Domestic Cars
in [Toyota]
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From: dr_jeff on 18 Nov 2009 21:41 Derek Gee wrote: > "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly(a)my-deja.com> wrote in message > news:d1ac9580-a06c-4691-86f9-302ae1f854c9(a)u25g2000prh.googlegroups.com... >> >> Derek Gee wrote: >>> "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly(a)my-deja.com> wrote in message >>> news:c71fcfc7-ae26-43ee-845f-9678880ecd80(a)2g2000prl.googlegroups.com... >>> >>>> So why hasn't CR shown any bias when they've tested American and >>>> Japanese twins, like the Toyota Matrix and Pontiac Vibe or the Toyota >>>> Corolla and Geo Prizm? >>> They have. Look back through the archives at their ratings for the Ford >>> Probe and Mazda 626. They were built in the same US plant, using largely >>> the same parts, yet the Mazda was always given the higher reliability >>> rating. This was one of the first clues that I had that something was >>> wrong >>> at CR. >> Please explain. Here are the reliability ratings of the 626 and >> Probe: >> >> http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2580/4114348350_3d1e3833c8_o.jpg > > What do you mean please explain? Can't you read? Look at the '89 > 4-cylinders for instance. The Ford's have extra black dots (or other lower > ratings) the Mazda 626 doesn't. (Cooling, electrical, A/C, clutch, > integrity, paint-trim) Why is the Ford version rated worse? They were made > in the same plant with the same platform parts. > > CR did rate the Mazda auto-trans worse, which is also wrong, being the same > unit as the Ford. > > Derek It could be the expectations of the cars. In addition, a different group of people might be more likely to buy Mazdas than Fords, leading to different responses. Jeff
From: Mike Hunter on 19 Nov 2009 10:47 The floor pan IS indeed "part" of the chassis, although not necessarily the same wheelbase or track.. <clare(a)snyder.on.ca> wrote in message news:mu99g5hv5h4cfi4v5g24jucdem8lgeoudo(a)4ax.com... > On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 22:28:30 -0500, "Derek Gee" > <dgeeSPAMSUCKS(a)twmi.INVALID.rr.com> wrote: > >>"hls" <hls(a)nospam.nix> wrote in message >>news:AtudnXjE59f1uZ7WnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d(a)giganews.com... >>> >>> "Derek Gee" <dgeeSPAMSUCKS(a)twmi.INVALID.rr.com> wrote in message >>>> >>>> They have. Look back through the archives at their ratings for the >>>> Ford >>>> Probe and Mazda 626. They were built in the same US plant, using >>>> largely >>>> the same parts, yet the Mazda was always given the higher reliability >>>> rating. This was one of the first clues that I had that something was >>>> wrong at CR. >>>> >>>> Derek >>> >>> Just a point...."largely the same parts" may not be the same as >>> equivalent >>> vehicles. >> >>The only differences were the outer skins. They were the same platform >>underneath. >> >>> I am not defending CR.. I have held them up to doubt many times on other >>> types >>> of products, where they clearly had no idea what they were talking >>> about. >> >>I've always worried about a company that reviews toasters rating >>sophisticated devices, particularly consumer electronics and automobiles. >>But they do have the advantage of being advertisement free... >> >>Derek >> > > The same "platform" does not mean the same floorpan, or even > necessarily the same wheelbase or track. It means it shares a > "layout". >
From: Mike Hunter on 19 Nov 2009 10:50 One thing is for certain, ones sees a lot of Scions sitting on the used car lots of other brand dealership. Apparently the previous owner chose not to buy another Scion, for some reason. "Derek Gee" <dgeeSPAMSUCKS(a)twmi.INVALID.rr.com> wrote in message news:4b04a86d$0$5092$9a6e19ea(a)unlimited.newshosting.com... > "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly(a)my-deja.com> wrote in message > news:f152deef-37b4-4a7e-85d7-5f85bd895e61(a)m7g2000prd.googlegroups.com... >> >> >> Derek Gee wrote: >>> "Andrew Rossmann" <andysnewsreply(a)no_junk.comcast.net> wrote in message >>> news:MPG.256cdade1ef3a1b9896cc(a)news.eternal-september.org... >>> >>> > CR only reports what their annual survey says. If there is any bias, >>> > it's in the subscribers. >>> >>> There's always bias in humans, but a better survey would do a better job >>> in >>> trying to design it out of the polling. The JD Power data seems better >>> quality. >> >> JD Powers is worse and has shown more bias in favor of luxury cars and >> cars favored by senior citizens, whether or not those vehicles were >> reliable (Lincoln) or not (Jaguar before Ford bought them). > > Not so. They have a much more accurate survey questionaire than the CR > one. > >>> > Also, don't forget that the quality of the dealership can go a long >>> > way >>> > toward how 'reliable' you think your car is. >> >> Then I'd expect luxury car brands to fare better because of their >> dealerships, so why have Cadlllac and Rolls-Royce long fared so poorly >> in reliability ratings? > > Where have you seen any published reliability data on RR? They aren't in > any published survey I've ever seen. > >>And Toyota's brand with the highest >> reliability is budget Scion, not luxury Lexus. > > Wrong, Scion is WAY below industry average in the 2009 JD Power > Dependability study! > > http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pdf/2009043.pdf > > Derek >
From: Mike Hunter on 19 Nov 2009 10:52 The difference is huge! JD Powers quantifies its data, CR does not. "dr_jeff" <utz(a)msu.edu> wrote in message news:JOKdnUJqm4PvM5nWnZ2dnUVZ_t9i4p2d(a)giganews.com... > Derek Gee wrote: >> "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly(a)my-deja.com> wrote in message >> news:f152deef-37b4-4a7e-85d7-5f85bd895e61(a)m7g2000prd.googlegroups.com... >>> >>> Derek Gee wrote: >>>> "Andrew Rossmann" <andysnewsreply(a)no_junk.comcast.net> wrote in message >>>> news:MPG.256cdade1ef3a1b9896cc(a)news.eternal-september.org... >>>> >>>>> CR only reports what their annual survey says. If there is any bias, >>>>> it's in the subscribers. >>>> There's always bias in humans, but a better survey would do a better >>>> job in >>>> trying to design it out of the polling. The JD Power data seems better >>>> quality. >>> JD Powers is worse and has shown more bias in favor of luxury cars and >>> cars favored by senior citizens, whether or not those vehicles were >>> reliable (Lincoln) or not (Jaguar before Ford bought them). >> >> Not so. They have a much more accurate survey questionaire than the CR >> one. > > How is the JD Power survey more accurate? Has there been a study on this? > It may look better on paper, but it may not better in real life. > > Jeff
From: Mike Hunter on 19 Nov 2009 10:53
YA THINK? ;) "dr_jeff" <utz(a)msu.edu> wrote in message news:taWdnYorRbjuLZnWnZ2dnUVZ_gpi4p2d(a)giganews.com... > Derek Gee wrote: >> "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly(a)my-deja.com> wrote in message >> news:d1ac9580-a06c-4691-86f9-302ae1f854c9(a)u25g2000prh.googlegroups.com... >>> >>> Derek Gee wrote: >>>> "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly(a)my-deja.com> wrote in message >>>> news:c71fcfc7-ae26-43ee-845f-9678880ecd80(a)2g2000prl.googlegroups.com... >>>> >>>>> So why hasn't CR shown any bias when they've tested American and >>>>> Japanese twins, like the Toyota Matrix and Pontiac Vibe or the Toyota >>>>> Corolla and Geo Prizm? >>>> They have. Look back through the archives at their ratings for the >>>> Ford >>>> Probe and Mazda 626. They were built in the same US plant, using >>>> largely >>>> the same parts, yet the Mazda was always given the higher reliability >>>> rating. This was one of the first clues that I had that something was >>>> wrong >>>> at CR. >>> Please explain. Here are the reliability ratings of the 626 and >>> Probe: >>> >>> http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2580/4114348350_3d1e3833c8_o.jpg >> >> What do you mean please explain? Can't you read? Look at the '89 >> 4-cylinders for instance. The Ford's have extra black dots (or other >> lower ratings) the Mazda 626 doesn't. (Cooling, electrical, A/C, clutch, >> integrity, paint-trim) Why is the Ford version rated worse? They were >> made in the same plant with the same platform parts. >> >> CR did rate the Mazda auto-trans worse, which is also wrong, being the >> same unit as the Ford. >> >> Derek > > It could be the expectations of the cars. In addition, a different group > of people might be more likely to buy Mazdas than Fords, leading to > different responses. > > Jeff |