Bias Against Domestic Cars
in [Toyota]
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From: Ed Pawlowski on 25 Nov 2009 19:15 "hls" <hls(a)nospam.nix> wrote in message > Might it also be that these types of vehicles, although similar, are not > identical, > and that they might actually be viewed differently by the buyer? > Dealership > handling of problems and warranty issues can certainly have a major impact > on > the degree of satisfaction one might have with the unit. I recall a survey of the Mitsubishi Eclipse and the Dodge and Plymouth version. They were ranked by consumers (not necessarily owners) to have different quality levels. 1 Mitsu, 2 Dodge, 3 Plymouth. It was strictly perception, not based on real facts. Some of the people surveyed had no idea they were identical cars.
From: caviller on 25 Nov 2009 21:38 On Nov 25, 12:28 pm, "Tom" <t...(a)comcast.net> wrote: > I hope you don't really believe that. If you do I think your ego and > elitist attitude need some adjustment, your blanket statement is beyond > believeable sounds like a teenager. You can read the exact same remarks in the archives of the Saturn newsgroup, where he trolled for a decade and compiled thousands of posts attacking Saturn and other domestic automobiles under various accounts. The best ones are where he contradicts himself and even ignores (or attacks) Consumer Reports when it didn't support his agenda. CR is like any other magazine. The editors are human. They have biases. They know their demographic and cater to it very well, because that's where their paycheck is. Their surveys aren't randomy sampled or scientific in any way. The results are not peer reviewed and they don't publish any statistical information like sample size, margin of error, standard deviation, nada. In the case of their red and black circles for reliability, they don't even tell you what they mean on an absolute scale; usually only in percent above/below average. That kind of information isn't all that helpful unless you know what average is. 40% above average when average is near zero is not a good way to scale your data to show people how many problems to expect over a typical period of ownership. More importantly, they don't tell you much about the severity or cost of the problems, only what categories are most typical. Oxygen sensor, engine oil sludge or worse? Who knows. That's not to say the reviews and reliability results aren't any good, but that they really aren't all that different from any other auto magazine. If you find you generally agree with them, great, but that doesn't make their results any more meaningful or accurate. I like Consumer Reports for the most part, but the non-random surveys and dumbed down results are not impressive by any statistical standard. Their reviews are usually reasonable enough. Usually they seem close to the mark, but sometimes they miss badly. Don't rely on them as the only resource and you'll be fine. For example, I'm still not sure how their 32mpg city fuel economy rating of the new Prius is anything close to "real world". We never owned a hybrid before and from our first tank it's been over 50mpg both estimated from the trip computer and calculated from gas fill ups. No fancy driving habits or super inflated tires or anything. Many other owners report the same. As with everything, don't always believe what you read.
From: caviller on 25 Nov 2009 21:48 On Nov 25, 6:15 pm, "Ed Pawlowski" <e...(a)snet.net> wrote: > "hls" <h...(a)nospam.nix> wrote in message > > Might it also be that these types of vehicles, although similar, are not > > identical, > > and that they might actually be viewed differently by the buyer? > > Dealership > > handling of problems and warranty issues can certainly have a major impact > > on > > the degree of satisfaction one might have with the unit. > > I recall a survey of the Mitsubishi Eclipse and the Dodge and Plymouth > version. They were ranked by consumers (not necessarily owners) to have > different quality levels. 1 Mitsu, 2 Dodge, 3 Plymouth. It was strictly > perception, not based on real facts. Some of the people surveyed had no idea > they were identical cars. Eventually, Consumer Reports lumped corporate twins together so that the results were the same for all siblings. As it was, it showed the very real problems inherent to their surveys and sampling.
From: SMS on 25 Nov 2009 21:51 caviller(a)my-deja.com wrote: > Their surveys aren't randomy > sampled or scientific in any way. The results are not peer reviewed > and they don't publish any statistical information like sample size, > margin of error, standard deviation, nada. Of course they do. They always state the sample size, and if they don't have a sufficiently large sample for a specific product then they leave it out, as you can see in every one of their surveys, including the most recent wireless carrier surveys. Claims of bias are pure sour grapes. A few people that buy a product get all upset when their choice is not validated by independent entities. No where was such an attitude more prevalent than for Saturn owners which could never accept the fact that all the marketing hype about the brand was not supported by the statistical reports of reliability from Consumer Reports and J.D. Power. You of course are well aware of this behavior since you were one of those that engaged in it.
From: SMS on 25 Nov 2009 21:55
Ed Pawlowski wrote: > I recall a survey of the Mitsubishi Eclipse and the Dodge and Plymouth > version. They were ranked by consumers (not necessarily owners) to have > different quality levels. The perception of consumers versus responses to specific questions regarding owner problems are two very different things. There seems to be an idea that the Consumer Reports surveys of reliability consist of questions like "Do you think xyz is a reliable vehicle" when in fact the surveys are limited to specific questions regarding the reliability of specific sub-systems of the vehicle. |