Bias Against Domestic Cars
in [Toyota]
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From: SMS on 27 Nov 2009 12:08 caviller(a)my-deja.com wrote: > Plus, the unintentional bias comes from the part that because they > survey only their own readers, So you believe that a CR reader that bought a Ford or Chevy is more likely to admit to problems than a CR reader that bought a Toyota or Honda? Where's your evidence of that, LOL? The survey isn't "what's your opinion of the reliability of xyz brand," it's detailed questions on problems you've had with the vehicle you own.
From: SMS on 27 Nov 2009 12:09 PerfectReign wrote: > On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 02:26:09 -0800, SMS fired up the etcha-a-sketch and > scratched out: > >>> Well, I engaged in the amusement provided by helping to debunk your >>> anti-Saturn rhetoric and finding all your contradictions, anyway. >> LOL, sure you did. It's interesting that all the things I reported on so >> early turned out to be completely true, and resulted in recalls or >> special service campaigns by Saturn. You debunked nothing. But if it >> makes you feel good to think that you did, go right ahead believing it. >> >> Saturn's demise was a direct result of their basing an entire company on >> marketing hype that could not fool enough people to sustain the >> business, and could not overcome the fact that the vehicles were >> unreliable. When CR and J.D. Power pointed out these facts, you saw the >> same kind of sour grapes you see now with the claims of bias. > > Saturn vehicles are unreliable? Look at the J.D. Power long term dependability results if you don't believe Consumer Reports.
From: caviller on 27 Nov 2009 12:26 On Nov 27, 10:15 am, Vic Smith <thismailautodele...(a)comcast.net> wrote: > On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 16:26:58 -0800 (PST), cavil...(a)my-deja.com wrote: > >On Nov 26, 9:52 am, Vic Smith <thismailautodele...(a)comcast.net> wrote: > > >Hi Vic! > > >> Not getting into statistical analysis methods, I'll note the CR has > >> NEVER given sampling sizes on a model basis. Only total surveys. > >> I am perfectly willing to be corrected on that. > > >You won't be. > > Hey Caviller! Long time no hear. Those were fun days when Steve was > playing the fool. Persistent cuss, wasn't he? > He did have some good points about Saturn timing chain > lubrication/failures, just somewhat over the top. > He was touting the Toyota he owned of course. > Pretty proud of how he flew from S.F to LA to cut a deal on it and > take advantage of dealer price differentials. He did a good job on > that, and is to be commended. He really "loved" that Toyota. > And here he is - a CR subscriber I guess - claiming people aren't > biased. > hehe. > > --Vic Yeah, some things never change. Not in our case, though. Three kids later and we have a Honda minivan and now a Toyota Prius. Nothing against domestics. I'd have rather had a Fusion Hybrid, especially for the extra room and superior crash protection. Unfortunately, those available at the time were almost $10k more expensive than our base Prius. Funny thing, CR has had mixed reviews on the Prius, too. We bought one anyway. From reading owner forums, you'd think the chronic complaints amounted to a lemon, but they rate pretty well in reliability according to CR, also. Go figure! Hadn't thought about my Saturn in a while. Decent enough car at the time. I do miss my stereo system. These days, it's factory stereo and sports/news radio as I run the kids around town. Pathetic, I know, but not as bad as trolling newsgroups in a personal war against certain products or companies.
From: caviller on 27 Nov 2009 12:34 On Nov 27, 11:08 am, SMS <scharf.ste...(a)geemail.com> wrote: > cavil...(a)my-deja.com wrote: > > Plus, the unintentional bias comes from the part that because they > > survey only their own readers, > > So you believe that a CR reader that bought a Ford or Chevy is more > likely to admit to problems than a CR reader that bought a Toyota or > Honda? Where's your evidence of that, LOL? Whether I believe it or not is irrelevant. Doing a survey in this fashion opens up the results to various biases and errors not present in a scientific, randomly sampled survey. But you're right about one thing, there's no way to prove it. Why? Because CR keeps all their methodology secret. There's no way to know how they massage their data, unlike what you'd find in any respectable peer reviewed medical, economics, statistics or other scientific journal. You appear to trust CR blindly, at least when it suits your agenda. I remain skeptical. I can live with that.
From: SMS on 27 Nov 2009 13:45
caviller(a)my-deja.com wrote: > Whether I believe it or not is irrelevant. Doing a survey in this > fashion opens up the results to various biases and errors not present > in a scientific, randomly sampled survey. But you're right about one > thing, there's no way to prove it. Why? Because CR keeps all their > methodology secret. There's no way to know how they massage their > data, unlike what you'd find in any respectable peer reviewed medical, > economics, statistics or other scientific journal. You appear to > trust CR blindly, at least when it suits your agenda. I remain > skeptical. I can live with that. So you also distrust J.D. Power whose results almost always are the same as what CR finds, just with less detail on each sub-system's reliability? These complaints about CR never change and never have any validity. The people that complain are those that feel that a poor rating somehow makes them look bad for having not researched their purchase carefully. Yet an attitude of "don't make the same mistake I did" would be better than trying to induce others to make the same mistake they did, with the added benefit of encouraging the manufacture to correct the problems rather than to spend their money on marketing and advertising trying to con more naive consumers into making a poor purchasing decision. These people will find something to complain about in every survey by every entity. If all the Saturn owners that were so quick to dismiss Consumer Reports and J.D. Power survey results had instead directed their energies toward encouraging Saturn to correct the reliability problems than maybe Saturn would have had sufficient sales to be able to continue in business. |