Bias Against Domestic Cars
in [Toyota]
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From: Ashton Crusher on 27 Nov 2009 14:24 On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 02:26:09 -0800, SMS <scharf.steven(a)geemail.com> wrote: >caviller(a)my-deja.com wrote: > >> I'll bite. I'm looking at the April, 2009 auto issue. Let's take the >> Ford Fusion on page 89. I see lots of red circles. I'm not seeing >> them state any numbers aside from the model year and the "6" in V6. >> No sample size for this model is given, though you claim it is always >> stated. No margin of error for the reliability projection. Nothing >> of statistical value whatsoever. You must still be getting the >> special edition? Please share. > >They state the sample size for the whole survey, and they also state >that they leave out models for which they get too low a number or >responses for the data to be statistically valid. Fortunately the survey >is so large that only really niche vehicles are left out for lack of data. > >> Well, I engaged in the amusement provided by helping to debunk your >> anti-Saturn rhetoric and finding all your contradictions, anyway. > >LOL, sure you did. It's interesting that all the things I reported on so >early turned out to be completely true, and resulted in recalls or >special service campaigns by Saturn. You debunked nothing. But if it >makes you feel good to think that you did, go right ahead believing it. > >Saturn's demise was a direct result of their basing an entire company on >marketing hype that could not fool enough people to sustain the >business, and could not overcome the fact that the vehicles were >unreliable. When CR and J.D. Power pointed out these facts, you saw the >same kind of sour grapes you see now with the claims of bias. You still don't seem to understand the bias inherent in the pre-selected (subscribers) and self-selecting respondents to their survey. Think of it this way, if FOX news (or any other channels news) polled their listeners asking them to rate the "level of satisfaction" with TV news shows, do you think the results would be a meaningful reflection on which news shows the "average" person finds satisfactory?
From: caviller on 27 Nov 2009 15:04 On Nov 27, 12:45 pm, SMS <scharf.ste...(a)geemail.com> wrote: > cavil...(a)my-deja.com wrote: > > Whether I believe it or not is irrelevant. Doing a survey in this > > fashion opens up the results to various biases and errors not present > > in a scientific, randomly sampled survey. But you're right about one > > thing, there's no way to prove it. Why? Because CR keeps all their > > methodology secret. There's no way to know how they massage their > > data, unlike what you'd find in any respectable peer reviewed medical, > > economics, statistics or other scientific journal. You appear to > > trust CR blindly, at least when it suits your agenda. I remain > > skeptical. I can live with that. > > So you also distrust J.D. Power whose results almost always are the same > as what CR finds, just with less detail on each sub-system's reliability? JD Power? I haven't looked at their information in many years. I also did not mention them on this thread. In general, I do tend not to give the benefit of the doubt to any media source that hides their methodology and statistical information, then puts results into dumbed down circles. I read my monthly CR magazine with a grain of salt, but it's fine if you don't share the same skepticism. Heck, I know many people that treat CR like holy text and buy nothing but their top rated items, simply because they think that a lack of advertising guarantees a lack of bias. To each their own. It is a free country. Where the amusement comes in is with people that swear by some magazine (or other media source), except when they discover it doesn't support some specific agenda. Hypocrites are funny. So, which one is it? Do you think CR is always unbiased and accurate? Or, do you think they were wrong to give a good reliability verdict to the Saturn S-series sedans? > These complaints about CR never change and never have any validity. The > people that complain are those that feel that a poor rating somehow > makes them look bad for having not researched their purchase carefully. > Yet an attitude of "don't make the same mistake I did" would be better > than trying to induce others to make the same mistake they did, with the > added benefit of encouraging the manufacture to correct the problems > rather than to spend their money on marketing and advertising trying to > con more naive consumers into making a poor purchasing decision. These > people will find something to complain about in every survey by every > entity. > > If all the Saturn owners that were so quick to dismiss Consumer Reports > and J.D. Power survey results had instead directed their energies toward > encouraging Saturn to correct the reliability problems than maybe Saturn > would have had sufficient sales to be able to continue in business. Why would Saturn S-series owners dismiss CR's reliability ratings when they were generally good? Despite changing the topic again, you're still not making any sense. As for reliability, even based on Consumer Reports, most vehicles these days are pretty reliable and warranties are pretty good. For me, reliability is far less important to me today than it was 20 years ago. I'd rather buy on the basis of safety, convenience, comfort, performance, etc. On the other hand, if I published Consumer Reports, I'd sure want reliability to seem like a big deal. Those results sell a lot of copy and they need to hype them as much as possible. And so, some people buy primarily on a perception of reliability because that's what is important to them. Again, it's a free country.
From: SMS on 27 Nov 2009 16:15 Ashton Crusher wrote: > You still don't seem to understand the bias inherent in the > pre-selected (subscribers) and self-selecting respondents to their > survey. Think of it this way, if FOX news (or any other channels > news) polled their listeners asking them to rate the "level of > satisfaction" with TV news shows, do you think the results would be a > meaningful reflection on which news shows the "average" person finds > satisfactory? How about I don't think of a company with a news channel doing a survey of which is the best news channel? Maybe you could explain how such a survey is in any way related to a non-profit, independent consumer organization doing a statistically sound survey--but I doubt it. You still fail to understand that Consumer Reports and J.D. Power aren't asking _anyone_ to rate vehicles. They're asking owners what problems they've had with the vehicles they own. From those answers they get their ratings. The J.D. Power ratings are from a random survey. The CR ratings are from surveys that subscribers choose to return. The results are always very similar. No one is asking a Toyota owner what their opinion of Fords is or vice-versa. Those that complain that CR surveys are filled out by subscribers are just looking for something, anything, to complain about because they don't like the results. No doubt there's something about the J.D. Power surveys that they also can find that they don't like. Nothing but a double-blind survey would satisfy them (and most likely that would not satisfy them either)l; they're very bitter and angry.
From: PerfectReign on 28 Nov 2009 23:40 On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 09:09:01 -0800, SMS fired up the etcha-a-sketch and scratched out: >> Saturn vehicles are unreliable? > > Look at the J.D. Power long term dependability results if you don't > believe Consumer Reports. I just know that my wife's five-year-old Vue has had zero issues. Sure it is small and very compact, but it has been reliable. -- perfectreign www.perfectreign.com || www.ecmplace.com a turn signal is a statement, not a request
From: dr_jeff on 29 Nov 2009 07:07
PerfectReign wrote: > On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 09:09:01 -0800, SMS fired up the etcha-a-sketch and > scratched out: > >>> Saturn vehicles are unreliable? >> Look at the J.D. Power long term dependability results if you don't >> believe Consumer Reports. > > I just know that my wife's five-year-old Vue has had zero issues. > > Sure it is small and very compact, but it has been reliable. Is that the one with the Honda V6 and Honda transmission in it? GM used a Honda engine from 2004 to 2007 model years, according Wikipedia. |