for the guys that are into recreational oil changing...
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From: C. E. White on 1 Apr 2010 12:56 "hls" <hls(a)nospam.nix> wrote in message news:R6qdnc3GYKDUWinWnZ2dnUVZ_o2dnZ2d(a)giganews.com... > > "C. E. White" <cewhite3(a)mindspring.com> wrote in message >> >> While eveyone should make their own decisions on this, I can think >> of a few "reasonable" reasons why it is useful to at least let >> people know 3000 mile oil changes are not usually beneficial: >> >> 1) To counteract the constant din from compnies like Jiffy-Lube >> that have brainwashed gnerations of people into thinking you must >> change your oil every 3000 miles. >> >> 2) To make people aware that cars and oils are much better than was >> the case when their Fathers used to change their oil. >> >> 3) Becasue some people are concerned about the environement and >> don't like seeing all that perfectly good oil being drained from >> engines. >> >> 4) Just becasue we want people to know the facts so they can make >> an informed decision. >> >> Ed > > What most people want, I think, is to have a car that goes when you > turn > the key, and doesnt crater before you are ready to trade it in and > get a > new one, all at a miraculously low price. I can't remember anyone in my family ever trading in a car becasue the engine was worn out. It always sem to be other stuff that finally makes the car/truck undesirable. > We probably keep our cars longer than most people. 8-10 years for > us is not unusual. And I want minimum trouble. I tend to get tired of vehicles sooner than that, although there are exceptions. But on the farm I usually keep things forever. My oldest tractor is 30 years old and still on the original engine. I change the oil in it every 150 engine hours or so. I figure this is roughly comparable to 5000 mile oil changes, although the usage is more severe than what you would see in a car. > I use the oil change interval recommended by the maker, no matter > what > an oil analysis might indicate. If I err, it tends to be on the > side of changing > sooner than later. When I had a Saturn with the oil life monitor, I was concnerned that I wasn't changing the oil often enough. I am not sure I ever actually waited until the light come on to change the oil. However one time when the oil had over 7500 miles of use, I decided to send a sample off to be analysed (I used Blackstone Labs). The analysis showed the oil still qualified as a 5W30 oil with minimal contamination. The report indicated that it was good until at least 10,000 miles. Of course I had already changed it at that point. At other times I pulled samples from other vehicles I own (or the SO owns) including a Nissan Frontier, a Ford Fusion, a Ford Expedition, and a Toyota RAV4. All had around 5000 miles on the oil at the time I pulled the samples for analysis. In every case the analysis claimed the oil was still good for many more miles. Changing oil at 3000 mile intervals is a hard habit for me to break. However, I have the perfect test case in my family - my older sister. Until she got cars with oil change indicators, she never remembered to change her oil at all and I had to constantly remind her. Before the oil change indicators, she would often exceed 10,000 miles on a change. With her newer cars, she never changed the oil befor ethe reminders, so her last Honda never got oil changes sooner than every 7500 miles. When she got rid of it last year, it had over 150,000 miles on the odometer. The car was a POS, but the engine started perfectly and ran fine. I can't see how changing the oil more oftne could have benefited her. So, with her new Toyota, I feel she is in fine shape. It has a reminder that comes on every 5000 miles. People always blame 3000 mile oil changes on the wisdom of their Fathers and/or mechanics. My Father always complianed that I changed oil too often (and on the farm changing tractors can get expensive). He thought 5000 miles was soon enough. My favorite mechanic agrees, 5000 miles is plenty soon, and he has a financial interest in encouraging more often changes. One of my neighbors uses synthetic oil in his Silverado HD diesel. He changes the filter every 5000 miles, but only changes the oil every 10,000 miles. The truck has nearly 100,000 miles and likely will be beat into a pile of junk before the engine give up (he uses it to pull trailers frequently). Ed
From: ACAR on 1 Apr 2010 12:58 On Apr 1, 12:39 pm, ACAR <dimndsonmywnds...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: The link Dr. Beam provides indicates a 10,000 mile oil change interval for cars. It goes on to say "Mileage can be extended furthest in gasoline engines by using higher quality motor oils containing a high total base number (TBN)." So anything less than 10,000 miles between oil changes is recreational and unnecessary according to the OP. Not 2000, not 3000, not 5000, not 7500 miles.
From: jim on 1 Apr 2010 13:01 Tegger wrote: > > jim <"sjedgingN0Sp"@m(a)mwt.net> wrote in > news:j-6dnb2sTIiJby7WnZ2dnUVZ_g2dnZ2d(a)bright.net: > > > > > > > Tegger wrote: > > >> > > >> > >> Your entire reply is very difficult to understand, is filled with > >> negatives stacked upon negatives, and appears to my faulty brain to > >> be pretty much ill-thought-out gibberish. > > > > Try reading it slowly - it isn't that complicated. > > Try writing more clearly. I don't care to wade repeatedly through lousy > writing; I have to do enough of that at work. Obviously watching US TV has reduced your reading skills to very low level. I'll put it in terms that even a simpleton should be able to understand. Somebody said "These minute particles pose no danger to your engine, but they cause the oil to darken." I responded that although that holds true most of the time there can be unusual circumstances where those fine particles do cause harm. -jim
From: pj on 1 Apr 2010 13:17 C. E. White wrote: > "E. Meyer" <e.p.meyer(a)verizon.net> wrote in message > news:C7D8C56C.19901%e.p.meyer(a)verizon.net... >> On 3/30/10 11:26 PM, in article >> slrnhr5jnf.j1e.joe(a)barada.griffincs.local, >> "Joe" <joe(a)spam.hits-spam-buffalo.com> wrote: >> >>> On 2010-03-31, SMS <scharf.steven(a)geemail.com> wrote: >>>> On 30/03/10 6:06 AM, FatterDumber& Happier Moe wrote: >>>>> jim beam wrote: >>>>>> http://www.dtsc.ca.gov/TechnologyDevelopment/OPPTD_FLY_High-Efficiency-Oil- >>>>>> Filters.cfm >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> shock, horror, they used oil analysis to arrive at these >>>>>> recommendations! >>>>>> >>>>> If you drive your car like a fleet vehicle than this might apply. >>>>> If you >>>>> are the typical driver you better stick to the manufacturer's >>>>> recommendation. >>>> Pretty sure he was directing the original post at the people that >>>> go far >>>> beyond the manufacturer's recommendations. Believe it or not, >>>> there are >>>> still some people out there doing two to three times the number of >>>> oil >>>> changes that the manufacturer recommends (i.e. 3000 mile oil >>>> changes) >>>> because they don't understand that excessive oil changes provide >>>> no >>>> additional benefit (and may actually be bad for the vehicle). I've >>>> never >>>> met one of these people in real life, but I've read their postings >>>> so >>>> they probably exist (maybe they are only in states that lack good >>>> public >>>> schools). >>>> >>>> If 3000 mile oil changes are "cheap insurance" why aren't they >>>> changing >>>> the oil every 1500 miles or every 750 miles, and buying as much of >>>> that >>>> cheap insurance as they can get? >>> The 3000 mile guys are usually old-timers not willing to change. >>> There is not enough evidence on the planet to convince my father >>> that >>> getting the oil changed at 6000 or 10000 is OK. He was brought up >>> on >>> 3000, and that's how it'll be until he dies. >> You guys must be pretty young. My dad grew up on 1000 mile oil >> changes & >> the rule of thumb was whenever it burned a quart, it was time to >> change the >> oil. >> >> While some automakers (e.g. Honda) are now saying 5,000/10,000 mile >> oil >> change intervals, there are some that are not. Nissan, for example >> still >> says 3750 (Severe) & 7500 (Normal), this from my '08 Altima and my >> '09 G37. >> Their definition of normal also pretty much leaves out everybody. > > Are you sure of that? I had a Frontier and my reading of the maual > indicated that changing oil according to the "severe" scedule was open > to a broad interpertation. > > Here is what was in my 2006 Frontier Owners Guide: > > Operation under the following conditions may require more frequent oil > and filter changes: > * repeated short distance driving at cold outside temperatures > * driving in dusty conditions > * extensive idling > * towing a trailer > * stop and go commuting > > Here is what the Nissan Maintenance Guide says: > > Depending on your driving habits and local conditions, you should > follow one of the three maintenance schedules listed below. Use these > guidelines to determine which maintenance schedule to use: > > PREMIUM MAINTENANCE* (Every 3,750 miles or 3 months, whichever comes > first) > Premium Maintenance is a Nissanrecommended option that is suitable for > all driving habits and local conditions. Nissan developed Premium > Maintenance for owners who want the ultimate in preventative > maintenance. With Premium Maintenance, more maintenance items are > regularly checked or replaced than > with either Schedule 1 or Schedule 2 maintenance schedules. > > Using the Premium Maintenance schedule may optimize the performance, > reliability, and resale value of your vehicle. > > SCHEDULE 1 (Every 3,750 miles or 3 months, whichever comes first) > > Schedule 1 features the same 3,750-mile service intervals as Premium > Maintenance; however, with Schedule 1 fewer maintenance items are > regularly > checked or replaced than with the Premium Maintenance schedule. Use > Schedule 1 if you primarily operate your vehicle under any of these > conditions: > > * Repeated short trips of less than 5 miles in normal temperatures or > less than 10 miles in freezing temperatures > * Stop-and-go traffic in hot weather or low-speed driving for long > distances > * Driving in dusty conditions or on rough, muddy, or salt-spread roads > * Towing a trailer, or using a camper or car-top carrier > > SCHEDULE 2 (Every 7,500 miles or 6 months, whichever comes first) > > Schedule 2 features 7,500-mile service intervals; with Schedule 2 > fewer maintenance items are regularly checked or replaced than with > Schedule 1. > Generally, Schedule 2 applies only to highway driving in temperate > conditions. Use Schedule 2 only if you primarily operate your vehicle > under conditions other than those listed in Schedule 1. > > * Premium Maintenance is a Nissan-recommended option; however, owners > need not perform such maintenance in order to maintain the warranties > which come with their Nissan. Premium Maintenance may not be available > outside the United States, please inquire of your dealer. > > ****End Quotes**** > > It seems to me the wording is designed to encourage owners to use the > 3,750 service interval, but really, how many people make repeated > short trips of less than 5 miles? My assumption would be if you do a > five mile commute, but still drive far enough at least weekly to warm > the car up, this short trip requirement wouldn't apply. > > The stop and go driving requirement and low spped for long distance > requirements are undefined. I suppose if you live in LA, then you may > always be in stop and go traffic. While this might be hard on your > brakes, do you really think it is all that hard on the engine oil? I > suppose if you spend hours of time stopped and idling, then you need > to change your oil more often. This is where a system like the GM Oil > Monitor is very useful. It actually counts engine revolutions and > modifies oil change intervals accordingly. > > I like the Ford descriptions of Normal and Severe Service better: > > Determine which maintenance schedule to follow > > It's important to follow the maintenance schedule that most closely > mirrors your driving habits and the conditions under which you drive. > For this reason, the Scheduled Maintenance Guide is divided into two > basic maintenance schedules: the Normal Schedule (further segmented > into Trucks, Fullsize Vans & SUVs and Cars & CUVs) and Special > Operating Conditions. > > Determining which maintenance schedule is right for you is easy. For > the most part, do you drive your Ford, Lincoln or Mercury vehicle > under typical, everyday conditions? If so, follow the Normal Schedule > Trucks, Fullsize Vans & SUVs, or Normal Schedule Cars & CUVs. > > Special Operating Conditions > > However, if one or more of the Special Operating Conditions outlined > below better describes how you typically operate your vehicle, you > will need to perform some maintenance services more often than the > Normal Schedule recommends. > > . Towing a trailer or carrying heavy loads > . Extensive idling and/or driving at low-speeds for long distances > . Driving in dusty conditions > . Off-road operation > . Use of E85 fuel 50% of the time or greater (flex fuel vehicles only) > > Important: For further details and information regarding these Special > Operating Conditions see page 42. > .... > > Items Needing Special Attention > > If you operate your Ford/Lincoln/Mercury primarily in one of the more > demanding Special Operating Conditions listed below, you will need to > have some items maintained more frequently. If you only occasionally > operate your vehicle under these conditions, it is not necessary to > perform the additional maintenance. For specific recommendations, see > your Ford or Lincoln Mercury Dealership Service Advisor or Technician. > > ****End Quote**** > > Notice the statements including the words "primarily" and > "occasionally." To me these implies most owners are exempt. > > I think the systems like GM's (and others) that use oil life monitors > that adjust the change interval based on driving patterns are the > best. Toyota took an approach that at least eliminates confusion - > they did away with the whole normal/severe schedule confusion by just > saying to change the oil every 5000 miles. Of course all of this is > just for the US. In Europe oil change intervals are generally > specified to be much longer - even for Toyotas that use the same (?) > engines as US Toyotas. I have had people claim this is because > European specifications for oil are much better than in the US. Does > this mean if I use oil that meets the European specs, I could go even > longer? > > Ed > > > The guys who write /Paradise Garage/ did a great study on this several years ago. While aimed at GM 5.7L small-blocks (IIRC they did this with a Firebird), they did a good job of combining theory with practice. They also gathered some test data. Here's the link: < http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/interval.html > I've adopted some of their ideas for my 'vette and for a new 3.6L VVT-DI engine. The only major change I've made was changing the filter more frequently than I change the oil. 1. I use Synthetic Oil exclusively 2. I top up to the 'full' mark on the stick whenever it's about 1/2 pint down. 3. I change when the oil life computer hits 30% or it's been 10K miles. 4. I change the filter every 5K (and top up to 'full') I performed an arbitrary change on the VVT-DI engine when it turned 2500 miles. At that point, the oil life gauge was showing 72% -- I just wanted to clear out excessive 'break-in uglies.' Note -- neither of these engine types has a 'sludge' reputation so that wasn't a consideration. That might be a consideration for Toyota owners. YMMV -- pj
From: C. E. White on 1 Apr 2010 13:42
"pj" <pj4380(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message news:4BB4D53A.4070300(a)yahoo.com... > Note -- neither of these engine types has a 'sludge' reputation so > that wasn't a consideration. That might be a consideration for > Toyota owners. YMMV Maybe for people who own older Toyotas, but Toyota fixed whatever was causing the problem with sludge. All of the Toyotas in my immeadiate family (3 RAV4s, a Highlander, and a 4Runner) have the automatic reminder that comes after 5000 miles, so I am not worried about sludge. Ed |