for the guys that are into recreational oil changing...
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From: Michael on 1 Apr 2010 15:11 On Apr 1, 12:00 pm, dr_jeff <u...(a)msu.edu> wrote: > Michael wrote: > > On Mar 29, 5:41 pm, jim beam <m...(a)privacy.net> wrote: > >>http://www.dtsc.ca.gov/TechnologyDevelopment/OPPTD_FLY_High-Efficienc.... > > >> shock, horror, they used oil analysis to arrive at these recommendations! > > >> -- > >> nomina rutrum rutrum > > > Interesting point: "The HE filters used in this study claimed > > filtration of particles to 1-2 [microns], much better than standard > > filters of 30-50 [microns]. Using standard filters is one reason that > > motor oil needs to be changed; it gets dirty with small particles > > which results in engine wear. In this regard, standard filters have > > not improved over the years compared to significant improvements in > > motor oil quality. The oil change interval set in warranties is a > > result of standard filters being the limiting factor, not the motor > > oil quality. Hence, higher quality filters will help to extend motor > > oil life to its full potential." > > > This raises the question: would it be safe to keep engine oil for > > 10,000 miles if you replace JUST the oil filter every 5,000 miles? > > The problem is that the oil filter is filtering out the small particles. > So you still have the small particles going right through the filter. > > > Is an HE filter necessary? Oil analysis comparisons of the HE Fram X2 > > filter vs. a normal CarQuest filter would have been nice. > > Only if the comparisons include small particles. > > > Maybe I can do an experiment with my '96 Camry (176k miles). For my > > wife's car, the 5,000 mile oil change will remain... > > And how are you going to determine the results of the experiment. You > have an n of 1 (one sample). Not very useful. Good point. Then again the ('96) car's seen oil change intervals of 8000 miles anyway. Was thinking of pulling the valve cover to see how it's doing. In the absence of HE vs. regular oil filter data, was thinking of just changing the (regular) filter, leaving the oil in, for say 8000 miles again. Doesn't the manual specify 7500 miles? Don't have it on me at the moment... > This doesn't take into account that the additives in the oil get used up. The article implied that oil additives aren't the limiting factor: it's the oil filter that is the limiting factor. Michael
From: E. Meyer on 1 Apr 2010 15:12 On 3/31/10 4:02 PM, in article hp0d9b$5l4$1(a)news.eternal-september.org, "Obveeus" <Obveeus(a)aol.com> wrote: > > "jim" <"sjedgingN0Sp"@m(a)mwt,net> wrote in message > news:cOydnWHESr5ZLi7WnZ2dnUVZ_tCdnZ2d(a)bright.net... >> >> Obveeus wrote: >> >>> I hadn't noticed any obsession. >> >> I noticed that you hadn't noticed >> >>>> If you want to do that then advocate for getting rid of the automobile >>>> as private transportation. >>> >>> That might be a bit extreme compared with the simple advise of 'don't >>> throw >>> away oil while it is still perfectly good'. >> >> How about you recycle it instead of throwing it away. > > Recycle it? Is that like where the quick oil change centers run it through > a screen and then sell it to new customers? > >>>>> People that want the environment to be less poluted? >>>> >>>> Doubtful argument. My hunch is people with this obsession pollute the >>>> environment significantly more than those who aren't so obsessed. >>> >>> Do tell, why would people that don't want oil pollution be more likely to >>> polute? >> >> It doesn't even cross your mind that someone who claiming to not want >> oil pollution might be a bit insincere? > > No, I don't take on face value that people who speak out against pollution > are secretly plotting to pollute more. > > >>>>> People that are just trying to give helpful financial advice? >>>> >>>> That doesn't explain the obsession. >>> >>> I hadn't noticed any obsession, but now that you mention the word, I will >>> say that you do seem a bit obsessed with this issue. >> >> What issue? Making light of people who preach nonsense on the internet? > > Telling people not to waste time/money changing their oil every 3,000 miles > is preaching non-sense? > >> If that is the issue you mean Ok, maybe I did take a little time today >> to be obsessed with that. But since Im not one of those who enjoys >> changing oil often I get my recreation in other ways. > > Posting on usenet is not 'recreation'. > >>>>> Next up: irrational fear that someone will let out word that car wax >>>>> isn't >>>>> really beneficial. >>>> >>>> Well the same could be said for any other cosmetic product, but so >>>> what? >>> >>> 'So what' could be said about 99% of all dialog, right? Maybe the >>> 'advise' >>> will keep someone from wasting time and money on car wax.. >> >> Or maybe your deluded about the impact of your words. > > I have no delusions. I am well aware that the vast majority of people are > too stupid to take good advise. > > And then there is that incredibly noisy minority of people who actually think they are giving good advice.
From: E. Meyer on 1 Apr 2010 15:19 On 4/1/10 9:31 AM, in article hp2amp$cn1$1(a)news.eternal-september.org, "C. E. White" <cewhite3(a)mindspring.com> wrote: > > "E. Meyer" <e.p.meyer(a)verizon.net> wrote in message > news:C7D8C56C.19901%e.p.meyer(a)verizon.net... >> On 3/30/10 11:26 PM, in article >> slrnhr5jnf.j1e.joe(a)barada.griffincs.local, >> "Joe" <joe(a)spam.hits-spam-buffalo.com> wrote: >> >>> On 2010-03-31, SMS <scharf.steven(a)geemail.com> wrote: >>>> On 30/03/10 6:06 AM, FatterDumber& Happier Moe wrote: >>>>> jim beam wrote: >>>>>> http://www.dtsc.ca.gov/TechnologyDevelopment/OPPTD_FLY_High-Efficiency-Oi >>>>>> l- >>>>>> Filters.cfm >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> shock, horror, they used oil analysis to arrive at these >>>>>> recommendations! >>>>>> >>>>> If you drive your car like a fleet vehicle than this might apply. >>>>> If you >>>>> are the typical driver you better stick to the manufacturer's >>>>> recommendation. >>>> >>>> Pretty sure he was directing the original post at the people that >>>> go far >>>> beyond the manufacturer's recommendations. Believe it or not, >>>> there are >>>> still some people out there doing two to three times the number of >>>> oil >>>> changes that the manufacturer recommends (i.e. 3000 mile oil >>>> changes) >>>> because they don't understand that excessive oil changes provide >>>> no >>>> additional benefit (and may actually be bad for the vehicle). I've >>>> never >>>> met one of these people in real life, but I've read their postings >>>> so >>>> they probably exist (maybe they are only in states that lack good >>>> public >>>> schools). >>>> >>>> If 3000 mile oil changes are "cheap insurance" why aren't they >>>> changing >>>> the oil every 1500 miles or every 750 miles, and buying as much of >>>> that >>>> cheap insurance as they can get? >>> >>> The 3000 mile guys are usually old-timers not willing to change. >>> There is not enough evidence on the planet to convince my father >>> that >>> getting the oil changed at 6000 or 10000 is OK. He was brought up >>> on >>> 3000, and that's how it'll be until he dies. >> >> You guys must be pretty young. My dad grew up on 1000 mile oil >> changes & >> the rule of thumb was whenever it burned a quart, it was time to >> change the >> oil. >> >> While some automakers (e.g. Honda) are now saying 5,000/10,000 mile >> oil >> change intervals, there are some that are not. Nissan, for example >> still >> says 3750 (Severe) & 7500 (Normal), this from my '08 Altima and my >> '09 G37. >> Their definition of normal also pretty much leaves out everybody. > > Are you sure of that? Did you read the stuff you just posted (bolow)? It says 3750 (severe) and 7500 (normal). > I had a Frontier and my reading of the maual > indicated that changing oil according to the "severe" scedule was open > to a broad interpertation. > > Here is what was in my 2006 Frontier Owners Guide: > > Operation under the following conditions may require more frequent oil > and filter changes: > * repeated short distance driving at cold outside temperatures > * driving in dusty conditions > * extensive idling > * towing a trailer > * stop and go commuting > > Here is what the Nissan Maintenance Guide says: > > Depending on your driving habits and local conditions, you should > follow one of the three maintenance schedules listed below. Use these > guidelines to determine which maintenance schedule to use: > > PREMIUM MAINTENANCE* (Every 3,750 miles or 3 months, whichever comes > first) > Premium Maintenance is a Nissanrecommended option that is suitable for > all driving habits and local conditions. Nissan developed Premium > Maintenance for owners who want the ultimate in preventative > maintenance. With Premium Maintenance, more maintenance items are > regularly checked or replaced than > with either Schedule 1 or Schedule 2 maintenance schedules. > > Using the Premium Maintenance schedule may optimize the performance, > reliability, and resale value of your vehicle. > > SCHEDULE 1 (Every 3,750 miles or 3 months, whichever comes first) > > Schedule 1 features the same 3,750-mile service intervals as Premium > Maintenance; however, with Schedule 1 fewer maintenance items are > regularly > checked or replaced than with the Premium Maintenance schedule. Use > Schedule 1 if you primarily operate your vehicle under any of these > conditions: > > * Repeated short trips of less than 5 miles in normal temperatures or > less than 10 miles in freezing temperatures > * Stop-and-go traffic in hot weather or low-speed driving for long > distances > * Driving in dusty conditions or on rough, muddy, or salt-spread roads > * Towing a trailer, or using a camper or car-top carrier > > SCHEDULE 2 (Every 7,500 miles or 6 months, whichever comes first) > > Schedule 2 features 7,500-mile service intervals; with Schedule 2 > fewer maintenance items are regularly checked or replaced than with > Schedule 1. > Generally, Schedule 2 applies only to highway driving in temperate > conditions. Use Schedule 2 only if you primarily operate your vehicle > under conditions other than those listed in Schedule 1. > > * Premium Maintenance is a Nissan-recommended option; however, owners > need not perform such maintenance in order to maintain the warranties > which come with their Nissan. Premium Maintenance may not be available > outside the United States, please inquire of your dealer. > > ****End Quotes**** > > It seems to me the wording is designed to encourage owners to use the > 3,750 service interval, but really, how many people make repeated > short trips of less than 5 miles? My assumption would be if you do a > five mile commute, but still drive far enough at least weekly to warm > the car up, this short trip requirement wouldn't apply. > > The stop and go driving requirement and low spped for long distance > requirements are undefined. I suppose if you live in LA, then you may > always be in stop and go traffic. While this might be hard on your > brakes, do you really think it is all that hard on the engine oil? I > suppose if you spend hours of time stopped and idling, then you need > to change your oil more often. This is where a system like the GM Oil > Monitor is very useful. It actually counts engine revolutions and > modifies oil change intervals accordingly. > > I like the Ford descriptions of Normal and Severe Service better: > > Determine which maintenance schedule to follow > > It's important to follow the maintenance schedule that most closely > mirrors your driving habits and the conditions under which you drive. > For this reason, the Scheduled Maintenance Guide is divided into two > basic maintenance schedules: the Normal Schedule (further segmented > into Trucks, Fullsize Vans & SUVs and Cars & CUVs) and Special > Operating Conditions. > > Determining which maintenance schedule is right for you is easy. For > the most part, do you drive your Ford, Lincoln or Mercury vehicle > under typical, everyday conditions? If so, follow the Normal Schedule > Trucks, Fullsize Vans & SUVs, or Normal Schedule Cars & CUVs. > > Special Operating Conditions > > However, if one or more of the Special Operating Conditions outlined > below better describes how you typically operate your vehicle, you > will need to perform some maintenance services more often than the > Normal Schedule recommends. > > . Towing a trailer or carrying heavy loads > > . Extensive idling and/or driving at low-speeds for long distances > > . Driving in dusty conditions > > . Off-road operation > > . Use of E85 fuel 50% of the time or greater (flex fuel vehicles only) > > > Important: For further details and information regarding these Special > Operating Conditions see page 42. > .... > > > Items Needing Special Attention > > If you operate your Ford/Lincoln/Mercury primarily in one of the more > demanding Special Operating Conditions listed below, you will need to > have some items maintained more frequently. If you only occasionally > operate your vehicle under these conditions, it is not necessary to > perform the additional maintenance. For specific recommendations, see > your Ford or Lincoln Mercury Dealership Service Advisor or Technician. > > ****End Quote**** > > Notice the statements including the words "primarily" and > "occasionally." To me these implies most owners are exempt. > > I think the systems like GM's (and others) that use oil life monitors > that adjust the change interval based on driving patterns are the > best. Toyota took an approach that at least eliminates confusion - > they did away with the whole normal/severe schedule confusion by just > saying to change the oil every 5000 miles. Of course all of this is > just for the US. In Europe oil change intervals are generally > specified to be much longer - even for Toyotas that use the same (?) > engines as US Toyotas. I have had people claim this is because > European specifications for oil are much better than in the US. Does > this mean if I use oil that meets the European specs, I could go even > longer? > > Ed > > >
From: Elle on 1 Apr 2010 15:36 On Mar 31, 6:33 pm, "Bob Jones" <em...(a)me.not> wrote: > Severe conditions are defined as follows: > I believe they apply to most drivers in this country. Are you saying no? I am saying "no," though it is conjecture like everyone else's. Honda itself says the normal schedule "is fine for most drivers." From my 2003 Civic's manual: --- The "normal" schedule is fine for most drivers, even if they occasionally drive in severe conditions. Follow the "severe" schedule only if you drive in one or more of these conditions /most of the time/" [emphasis is Honda's, not mine]: Trips of less than 5 miles (less than 10 in freezing weather) Extremely hot weather (over 90 degrees F) Extensive idling or stop-and-go driving Trailer towing, car-top carrier, or mountain driving Muddy, dusty, or de-iced roads" --- In addition, I think oil change analyses will support the claim that most folks' Hondas are not driven under severe conditions. The original study that Jim B cited proposes a 10k mile change interval for passenger cars. Look at the study itself, and one will see 40 passenger cars, used as a fleet by the California Department of General Services, were examined. Again, it is only conjecture, but ISTM that such fleet cars would see much stop and go driving. Consumer Reports found similar for NYC taxis in 1996: http://www.moneybluebook.com/articles/consumerreports.oilchange.php .
From: SMS on 1 Apr 2010 15:39
On 01/04/10 11:56 AM, Michael wrote: > On Mar 29, 5:41 pm, jim beam<m...(a)privacy.net> wrote: >> http://www.dtsc.ca.gov/TechnologyDevelopment/OPPTD_FLY_High-Efficienc... >> >> shock, horror, they used oil analysis to arrive at these recommendations! >> >> -- >> nomina rutrum rutrum > > > > Interesting point: "The HE filters used in this study claimed > filtration of particles to 1-2 [microns], much better than standard > filters of 30-50 [microns]. Using standard filters is one reason that > motor oil needs to be changed; it gets dirty with small particles > which results in engine wear. In this regard, standard filters have > not improved over the years compared to significant improvements in > motor oil quality. The oil change interval set in warranties is a > result of standard filters being the limiting factor, not the motor > oil quality. Hence, higher quality filters will help to extend motor > oil life to its full potential." > > This raises the question: would it be safe to keep engine oil for > 10,000 miles if you replace JUST the oil filter every 5,000 miles? > > Is an HE filter necessary? Oil analysis comparisons of the HE Fram X2 > filter vs. a normal CarQuest filter would have been nice. > > Maybe I can do an experiment with my '96 Camry (176k miles). For my > wife's car, the 5,000 mile oil change will remain... On the 96 Camry it would be easy (assuming a 4 cylinder) because of the oil filter placement. On a lot of vehicles, changing just the filter would be messy. Of course the whole premise is wrong to begin with though. Using "standard" filters has nothing to do with how often the oil needs to be changed. |