Toyota struggles to stop runaway crisis
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From: Hachiroku ハチロク on 7 Feb 2010 10:49 On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 09:42:01 -0500, Mike Hunter wrote: > Ford was proven to not be at fault, dummy. TOYOTA has been proven to not be at fault! It was CTS that made the accelerators in China. The recall does NOT apply to accelerators provided by DENSO. > > > "jim beam" <me(a)privacy.net> wrote in message > news:2PWdnZY6DsfpU_PWnZ2dnUVZ_j-dnZ2d(a)speakeasy.net... >> On 02/07/2010 06:09 AM, Mike Hunter wrote: >>> (Cross postings deleted, automatically) >>> >>> Perhaps in the US, but you neglected to point out that Toyota world >>> wide total number of recalls for their "defects" is 5.4 MILLION, >>> involving over >>> 20 deaths and an untold number of injuries. >> >> that's still chicken feed compared to others - frod killed hundreds with >> their exploder, and they didn't even /do/ a recall. that's not counting >> those from frod's ignition failures or throttle sticking problems. >> >> >> >>> >>> >>> "Tegger"<invalid(a)invalid.inv> wrote in message >>> news:Xns9D178DBBAE4DBtegger(a)208.90.168.18... >>>> SMS<scharf.steven(a)geemail.com> wrote in news:4b6d0234$0$1621 >>>> $742ec2ed(a)news.sonic.net: >>>> >>>>> It's pretty rare for _any_ >>>>> car to not have at least a couple of recalls with the increasing >>>>> complexity of vehicles. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> The NHTSA currently has 40 "defect" investigations going. >>>> >>>> 3 cover Toyota. >>>> >>>> 37 cover other automakers. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Tegger >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>
From: jim beam on 7 Feb 2010 11:06 On 02/07/2010 07:47 AM, Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B wrote: > On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 09:30:47 -0500, Mike Hunter wrote: > >> (Cross postings deleted, automatically) >> >> Get real! No manufacturer has ever had any government required >> recall(s) that total as many as are currently being recalled by Toyota. >> Certainly not nearly as many that involve this many deaths and untold >> numbers of injuries > > Really? This is the 5th largest recall of all time. > > Better google Ford Transmission Recall. THey got out of it by sending you > an orange sticker to put on your dash that said "WARNING! This Motor > Vehicle may go from Park to Reverse at anytime without warning. Do not > leave vehicle idling." > > Or some such BS. My roomate had a Country Squire Land Barge and that's > what he got in the mail. We had a good laugh over it and he stuck it to > the refrigerator. That was 1980 if I remember right. > > Ford petitioned the government saying it would be too expensive to fix the > millions of transmissions that were on the road. > > > On June 10, 1980, NHTSA made an initial determination of defect in > Ford vehicles with C-3, C-4, C-6, FMX, and JATCO automatic > transmissions. The alleged problem with the transmissions is that a > safety defect permits them to slip accidentally from park to reverse. > As of the date of determination, NHTSA had received 23,000 complaints > about Ford transmissions, including reports of 6,000 accidents, 1,710 > injuries, and 98 fatalities--primarily the young and old, unable to > save themselves--directly attributable to transmission slippage. As > detailed below, this defect finding eventually resulted in a > pseudo-recall wherein Ford agreed to mail warning labels to 23 million > owners of Fords with these transmissions rather than recall them for > mechanical repair. The Center for Auto Safety first called NHTSA's > attention to the problem in July 1977, and shortly thereafter NHTSA > instituted an investigation into 1966-79 Ford vehicles with C-6 or FMX > transmissions. In the face of apparent administrative inaction by > NHTSA, CAS in July 1978, renewed its warnings and asked NHTSA for a > recall. CAS produced evidence of 12 deaths and 100 accidents which > occurred because of transmission slippage. CAS reminded NHTSA of the > long established precedent of the Kelsey-Hayes wheel case (United > States v. General Motors Corp., 171 App. D.C. 27, 518 F.2d 420 (1975)) > that a significant number of failures alone in normal use is a > sufficient legal basis for a recall without determination of a precise > cause of failure. But in October 1978, NHTSA denied the Center's > recall request. It did, however, term its investigation a "matter of > extremely high priority." NHTSA realized the magnitude of the proposed > recall put its investigation on politically sensitive ground. Hence, > any action required concrete evidence of defective design. On August > 29, 1978, NHTSA issued a "Consumer Advisory" warning drivers not to > leave their vehicles unattended with the engine running for even a few > moments. The following month NHTSA conducted an investigation to find > out if complaints against Ford transmissions were disproportionately > higher than those against other manufacturers or whether the problem > was common for all automatic transmissions. The study revealed, > contrary to Ford's contentions, that Ford transmissions were 12 times > more likely than General Motors' and 14 times more likely than > Chryslers' to jump from park-to-reverse when jarred. > > 98 Deaths. Far more than the deaths reported for Toyota's problem, and the > problem may have been excaberated by people pressing the accelerator > hoping to free it. > > Moreover: > > In August, 1980, in accordance with the National Traffic and Motor Vehicle > Safety Act of 1966, as amended, NHTSA held hearings at which interested > persons were given the opportunity to present data and views as to the > existence of a safety-related defect in these transmissions. Two months > later, NHTSA Administrator Claybrook sent a memorandum to Secretary of > Transportation Goldschmidt announcing her intention to order the recall of > 10 million Fords with C-3, C-4 and FMX automatic transmissions. With > respect to the JATCO and C-6 transmissions, she stated her belief that a > remedy, such as a warning device, might be negotiated with Ford. > Contrary to Administrator Claybrook's findings, on December 31, 1980, > Secretary Goldschmidt announced DOT's agreement to close its three and > one-half year investigation of the Ford automatic transmissions in > exchange for Ford's pledge to send notification and warning labels to > owners of almost 23 million Fords. On March 6, 1981, the Center for > Auto Safety filed suit to overturn the agreement between Ford and DOT > on the grounds that a mere warning label recall was illegal under the > National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act which required > mechanical remedy of defective vehicles and that there was no support > in the record showing a label would reduce the number of accidents, > deaths and injuries. > > By 1984: > > Despite findings by the agency that Ford "park-to-reverse" accidents had > resulted in a total of at least 306 deaths, and that the death rate from > the defect was higher in 1984 than in any other year in history except one > (1980), NHTSA announced on July 12, 1985, that it would not reopen the > case. > > > SIX YEARS and the problem was NEVER fixed! Over 300 deaths from faulty > tranmissions, and Ford got out of it with a sticker. wow, nice post. best post links to your sources though. > > > >> >> >> "Hachiroku ????"<Trueno(a)e86.GTS> wrote in message >> news:pan.2010.02.07.04.21.43.24413(a)e86.GTS... >>> On Fri, 05 Feb 2010 21:47:22 -0800, SMS wrote: >>> >>>> Actually it isn't. I was listening to an interview today on NPR with >>>> an automotive safety expert. The Toyota recall for accelerator pedals >>>> is only >>>> the 5th largest recall, and unlike bigger recalls for other >>>> manufacturers (Ford and GM) it's going to be solved much more quickly. >>>> Ford has the honor of the biggest recall in history. >>> >>> >>> And got out of it by providing you with a sticker for the dashboard... >>> >>> >>>
From: Ed Maier on 7 Feb 2010 12:06 On 2/7/2010 9:47 AM, Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B wrote: > On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 09:30:47 -0500, Mike Hunter wrote: > >> (Cross postings deleted, automatically) >> >> Get real! No manufacturer has ever had any government required >> recall(s) that total as many as are currently being recalled by Toyota. >> Certainly not nearly as many that involve this many deaths and untold >> numbers of injuries > > Really? This is the 5th largest recall of all time. > > Better google Ford Transmission Recall. THey got out of it by sending you > an orange sticker to put on your dash that said "WARNING! This Motor > Vehicle may go from Park to Reverse at anytime without warning. Do not > leave vehicle idling." > > Or some such BS. My roomate had a Country Squire Land Barge and that's > what he got in the mail. We had a good laugh over it and he stuck it to > the refrigerator. That was 1980 if I remember right. > > Ford petitioned the government saying it would be too expensive to fix the > millions of transmissions that were on the road. > > > On June 10, 1980, NHTSA made an initial determination of defect in > Ford vehicles with C-3, C-4, C-6, FMX, and JATCO automatic > transmissions. The alleged problem with the transmissions is that a > safety defect permits them to slip accidentally from park to reverse. > Interesting. This problem popped up for me around 1971. I owned a '69 Torino with the 351 engine and FMX transmission that I parked in my driveway that had an uphill slant. I would put it in park and push the emergency brake pedal. About 2:00AM one morning I had a knock on the front door from a neighbor who told me that my car was in the middle of the street. The transmission had jumped out of park and the slant of the driveway was enough to overcome the emergency brake. This happened a second time about a month later, but this time I discovered it. My car was only partially blocking the street in front. About that time I sold my boat so I could park the car inside the garage on a level surface. Ed Maier
From: Mike Hunter on 7 Feb 2010 12:15 (Cross postings deleted, automatically) Old news! That is just another of the YABUT excuses used to change the subject away from Toyota CURRENT 5.4 million world wide recall. "jim beam" <me(a)privacy.net> wrote in message news:S8GdnfUOnK1oefPWnZ2dnUVZ_sNi4p2d(a)speakeasy.net... > On 02/07/2010 07:47 AM, Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B wrote: >> On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 09:30:47 -0500, Mike Hunter wrote: >> >>> (Cross postings deleted, automatically) >>> >>> Get real! No manufacturer has ever had any government required >>> recall(s) that total as many as are currently being recalled by Toyota. >>> Certainly not nearly as many that involve this many deaths and untold >>> numbers of injuries >> >> Really? This is the 5th largest recall of all time. >> >> Better google Ford Transmission Recall. THey got out of it by sending you >> an orange sticker to put on your dash that said "WARNING! This Motor >> Vehicle may go from Park to Reverse at anytime without warning. Do not >> leave vehicle idling." >> >> Or some such BS. My roomate had a Country Squire Land Barge and that's >> what he got in the mail. We had a good laugh over it and he stuck it to >> the refrigerator. That was 1980 if I remember right. >> >> Ford petitioned the government saying it would be too expensive to fix >> the >> millions of transmissions that were on the road. >> >> >> On June 10, 1980, NHTSA made an initial determination of defect in >> Ford vehicles with C-3, C-4, C-6, FMX, and JATCO automatic >> transmissions. The alleged problem with the transmissions is that a >> safety defect permits them to slip accidentally from park to >> reverse. >> As of the date of determination, NHTSA had received 23,000 >> complaints >> about Ford transmissions, including reports of 6,000 accidents, >> 1,710 >> injuries, and 98 fatalities--primarily the young and old, unable to >> save themselves--directly attributable to transmission slippage. As >> detailed below, this defect finding eventually resulted in a >> pseudo-recall wherein Ford agreed to mail warning labels to 23 >> million >> owners of Fords with these transmissions rather than recall them for >> mechanical repair. The Center for Auto Safety first called NHTSA's >> attention to the problem in July 1977, and shortly thereafter NHTSA >> instituted an investigation into 1966-79 Ford vehicles with C-6 or >> FMX >> transmissions. In the face of apparent administrative inaction by >> NHTSA, CAS in July 1978, renewed its warnings and asked NHTSA for a >> recall. CAS produced evidence of 12 deaths and 100 accidents which >> occurred because of transmission slippage. CAS reminded NHTSA of the >> long established precedent of the Kelsey-Hayes wheel case (United >> States v. General Motors Corp., 171 App. D.C. 27, 518 F.2d 420 >> (1975)) >> that a significant number of failures alone in normal use is a >> sufficient legal basis for a recall without determination of a >> precise >> cause of failure. But in October 1978, NHTSA denied the Center's >> recall request. It did, however, term its investigation a "matter of >> extremely high priority." NHTSA realized the magnitude of the >> proposed >> recall put its investigation on politically sensitive ground. Hence, >> any action required concrete evidence of defective design. On August >> 29, 1978, NHTSA issued a "Consumer Advisory" warning drivers not to >> leave their vehicles unattended with the engine running for even a >> few >> moments. The following month NHTSA conducted an investigation to >> find >> out if complaints against Ford transmissions were disproportionately >> higher than those against other manufacturers or whether the problem >> was common for all automatic transmissions. The study revealed, >> contrary to Ford's contentions, that Ford transmissions were 12 >> times >> more likely than General Motors' and 14 times more likely than >> Chryslers' to jump from park-to-reverse when jarred. >> >> 98 Deaths. Far more than the deaths reported for Toyota's problem, and >> the >> problem may have been excaberated by people pressing the accelerator >> hoping to free it. >> >> Moreover: >> >> In August, 1980, in accordance with the National Traffic and Motor >> Vehicle >> Safety Act of 1966, as amended, NHTSA held hearings at which interested >> persons were given the opportunity to present data and views as to the >> existence of a safety-related defect in these transmissions. Two months >> later, NHTSA Administrator Claybrook sent a memorandum to Secretary of >> Transportation Goldschmidt announcing her intention to order the recall >> of >> 10 million Fords with C-3, C-4 and FMX automatic transmissions. With >> respect to the JATCO and C-6 transmissions, she stated her belief that a >> remedy, such as a warning device, might be negotiated with Ford. >> Contrary to Administrator Claybrook's findings, on December 31, >> 1980, >> Secretary Goldschmidt announced DOT's agreement to close its three >> and >> one-half year investigation of the Ford automatic transmissions in >> exchange for Ford's pledge to send notification and warning labels >> to >> owners of almost 23 million Fords. On March 6, 1981, the Center for >> Auto Safety filed suit to overturn the agreement between Ford and >> DOT >> on the grounds that a mere warning label recall was illegal under >> the >> National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act which required >> mechanical remedy of defective vehicles and that there was no >> support >> in the record showing a label would reduce the number of accidents, >> deaths and injuries. >> >> By 1984: >> >> Despite findings by the agency that Ford "park-to-reverse" accidents had >> resulted in a total of at least 306 deaths, and that the death rate from >> the defect was higher in 1984 than in any other year in history except >> one >> (1980), NHTSA announced on July 12, 1985, that it would not reopen the >> case. >> >> >> SIX YEARS and the problem was NEVER fixed! Over 300 deaths from faulty >> tranmissions, and Ford got out of it with a sticker. > > wow, nice post. best post links to your sources though. > > > >> >> >> >>> >>> >>> "Hachiroku ????"<Trueno(a)e86.GTS> wrote in message >>> news:pan.2010.02.07.04.21.43.24413(a)e86.GTS... >>>> On Fri, 05 Feb 2010 21:47:22 -0800, SMS wrote: >>>> >>>>> Actually it isn't. I was listening to an interview today on NPR with >>>>> an automotive safety expert. The Toyota recall for accelerator pedals >>>>> is only >>>>> the 5th largest recall, and unlike bigger recalls for other >>>>> manufacturers (Ford and GM) it's going to be solved much more quickly. >>>>> Ford has the honor of the biggest recall in history. >>>> >>>> >>>> And got out of it by providing you with a sticker for the dashboard... >>>> >>>> >>>> >
From: Mike Hunter on 7 Feb 2010 12:17
(Cross postings deleted, automatically) Old news! That is just another of the YABUT excuses used to change the subject away from Toyota CURRENT 5.4 million world wide recall. Why did you not just set the parking brake? LOL "Ed Maier" <evmaiertakethisout(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message news:hkmrtr$mr5$1(a)news.eternal-september.org... > On 2/7/2010 9:47 AM, Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B wrote: >> On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 09:30:47 -0500, Mike Hunter wrote: >> >>> (Cross postings deleted, automatically) >>> >>> Get real! No manufacturer has ever had any government required >>> recall(s) that total as many as are currently being recalled by Toyota. >>> Certainly not nearly as many that involve this many deaths and untold >>> numbers of injuries >> >> Really? This is the 5th largest recall of all time. >> >> Better google Ford Transmission Recall. THey got out of it by sending you >> an orange sticker to put on your dash that said "WARNING! This Motor >> Vehicle may go from Park to Reverse at anytime without warning. Do not >> leave vehicle idling." >> >> Or some such BS. My roomate had a Country Squire Land Barge and that's >> what he got in the mail. We had a good laugh over it and he stuck it to >> the refrigerator. That was 1980 if I remember right. >> >> Ford petitioned the government saying it would be too expensive to fix >> the >> millions of transmissions that were on the road. >> >> >> On June 10, 1980, NHTSA made an initial determination of defect in >> Ford vehicles with C-3, C-4, C-6, FMX, and JATCO automatic >> transmissions. The alleged problem with the transmissions is that a >> safety defect permits them to slip accidentally from park to >> reverse. >> > > Interesting. This problem popped up for me around 1971. I owned a '69 > Torino with the 351 engine and FMX transmission that I parked in my > driveway that had an uphill slant. I would put it in park and push the > emergency brake pedal. About 2:00AM one morning I had a knock on the front > door from a neighbor who told me that my car was in the middle of the > street. The transmission had jumped out of park and the slant of the > driveway was enough to overcome the emergency brake. > > This happened a second time about a month later, but this time I > discovered it. My car was only partially blocking the street in front. > About that time I sold my boat so I could park the car inside the garage > on a level surface. > > Ed Maier |