Prev: Brakes unable to stop runaway Lexus in California?
Next: Toyota/Lexus Runaway Fix Not Limited to Floor Mats (!)
From: Handyman on 13 Oct 2009 08:26
On Oct 9, 2:10 pm, Susan <su...(a)rooftop.com> wrote:
> From researching bebuilding the starter it became clear the rebuild is
> simple -- it's removing the starter that's not fun.  I found excellent
> instructions for a 1991 4Runner 3VZE (everything should be the same as
> my truck for this job) here:
>
> http://www.yotatech.com/f128/starter-replacement-2nd-gen-4runner-76358/
>
> ...and I was tempted. After sleeping on it overnight, I decided to
> call the auto shop to ask what they charge, figuring if it was around
> $200 bucks, I'd save myself the aggrivation. (I was more worried about
> getting the starter BACK IN, as those retaining bolts are not easy to
> get to from the sound/look of it... I pictured myself on my back with
> a bolt precariously balanced on the end of a 2-foot extension, in a
> swivel joint, trying to line it up to start the first few threads, and
> hearing the CLINK as it drops down through the wishbones for the 40th
> time in a row...) They charge $225, so I dropped it off.
>
> I'm not proud, but my truck is probably relieved.

The toughest part of the starter removal / installation is orienting
it correctly to slip it out through the access hole in the inner
fender. Starting the bolts is easy, you just lay flat on your back
and start them by hand from under the starter, then put the long
extension on and tighten them up. My assumption is that the starter
contacts aren't really the problem if you initially were not hearing
any clicks when you attempted to start the truck. If the contacts
were the issue you would have heard the click of the solenoid pulling
the plunger in to hit the contacts but then the starter wouldn't
turn. You said you had no click so I would think the solenoid got a
little corroded sitting for those 10 weeks and then wouldn't pull the
plunger in until you gave it that love tap with the hammer. Hopefully
if it is a reputable shop they will clean or at least check the
solenoid too. Best of luck.
From: Susan on 14 Oct 2009 19:37
On Tue, 13 Oct 2009 05:26:59 -0700 (PDT), Handyman <sgt_az(a)yahoo.com>
wrote:

>On Oct 9, 2:10�pm, Susan <su...(a)rooftop.com> wrote:
>> From researching bebuilding the starter it became clear the rebuild is
>> simple -- it's removing the starter that's not fun. �I found excellent
>> instructions for a 1991 4Runner 3VZE (everything should be the same as
>> my truck for this job) here:
>>
>> http://www.yotatech.com/f128/starter-replacement-2nd-gen-4runner-76358/
>>
>> ...and I was tempted. After sleeping on it overnight, I decided to
>> call the auto shop to ask what they charge, figuring if it was around
>> $200 bucks, I'd save myself the aggrivation. (I was more worried about
>> getting the starter BACK IN, as those retaining bolts are not easy to
>> get to from the sound/look of it... I pictured myself on my back with
>> a bolt precariously balanced on the end of a 2-foot extension, in a
>> swivel joint, trying to line it up to start the first few threads, and
>> hearing the CLINK as it drops down through the wishbones for the 40th
>> time in a row...) They charge $225, so I dropped it off.
>>
>> I'm not proud, but my truck is probably relieved.
>
>The toughest part of the starter removal / installation is orienting
>it correctly to slip it out through the access hole in the inner
>fender. Starting the bolts is easy, you just lay flat on your back
>and start them by hand from under the starter, then put the long
>extension on and tighten them up.

This is good to know, because if the starter ever acts up again, I
might do this. But on my particular truck, I don't know if I can even
reach the starter from under the truck. It sits on 33" tires, and has
a 4" lift kit. Getting up through the wishbones to the starter might
be longer than my arm, even with my body pressed up as high as it
could go. I just remember looking WAY UP at that starter from under
the truck thinking, "Are you kidding me?!" I had to find a 2-foot
dowel just to tap it.

>My assumption is that the starter
>contacts aren't really the problem if you initially were not hearing
>any clicks when you attempted to start the truck. If the contacts
>were the issue you would have heard the click of the solenoid pulling
>the plunger in to hit the contacts but then the starter wouldn't
>turn.

In the beginning I heard no clicks. No nothing. Then the last few
times I tried, I heard a single soft click coming from what sounded
like the area of the dash behind or under the glove box, which is the
general location of the starter. I only heard it because it was at
night and everything was very quiet. It is possible it was making that
single click all along, but it was too noisy to hear it previously.

> You said you had no click so I would think the solenoid got a
>little corroded sitting for those 10 weeks and then wouldn't pull the
>plunger in until you gave it that love tap with the hammer. Hopefully
>if it is a reputable shop they will clean or at least check the
>solenoid too. Best of luck.

I was very unhappy with what happened, as it turned out. What I wanted
to do was ask the shop to pull it, let me rebuild it, then have them
put it back. I wanted to do this because I don't trust rebuilds unless
you see and do it yourself. You never know if people actually do a
good job or not. But I expected the shop to do the rebuild, and never
drempt they would agree to pull it for me, so I just told them I
wanted it rebuilt. They said they would replace it and turn in the
core. I said no, I want it rebuilt. So they said ok, they would do
that for the same price. Quote was $225. I figured most of it was
labor. To make sure they rebuilt it completely, I asked for all the
old parts. I told them I wanted to eyeball them.

Turns out they do NOT do rebuilds themselves, but send out to a shop.
(Had I known this, I *would* have asked them to let ME rebuild it.) So
I go to pick it up, and pay the bill, and they hand me "the parts."
Two contacts, and what looks like a broken off black plastic part with
a spade connector, like from where the ignition wire fits on. I asked
about the plunger and brushes. He said "that's all they gave me." I
was a little irate. The labor was $90 which was fine, but I was
charged $115 for a "rebuild" when all they apparently did was replace
$11 contacts. And what was with the ignition part broken off? Did that
mean they kept my original Toyota starter, and gave me a crappy after
market starter after all? (When I got to the shop to pick it up, I
peeked through the access panel and it actually looked like a
different starter to me, but I figured it was because the old one was
dirty. This was before I knew anything.)

So I tell the guy I am not happy that I paid $115 for two contacts,
and that I wanted it completely rebuilt. He says he doesn't have a
good answer for me and that he'll call the shop Monday and ask what
they did.

So he called me this morning (Wed). I didn't really expect to hear
back from him, so I give them credit for following up. In a nutshell,
even though he didn't say this all in so many words, the place only
replaces worn parts in a rebuild, not all parts. (Which makes me mad
because the brushes could have been the problem, and leaving it up to
THEM is not right because they replace as little as possible to make
as much profit as possible... PLUS I have to pay full labor to have it
taken out and put back if something else goes wrong!) And the other
weird thing was, he said this particular starter of mine does not have
a plunger. He said it's a heavy duty starter, called a ... damn. I
can't remember. But I asked what wore out the contacts if not the ring
at the base of the plunger. He didn't say anything. And I asked about
the brushes, and again he said, "that's all the parts I got." He said
they've been doing biz for 25 yrs with the other shop, and he
understands why I'm mad, but he's in the middle and can't do anything
but offer me $50 credit on future work.

Life is too short to be upset, but I was not happy. I told him if
something goes wrong with the starter again, I want the $50 credit
towards labor to pull it, and *I* want to rebuild it. He said ok.

The moral of the story is.... never let anyone else do your rebuild!

Btw, have you heard of a starter without a plunger???
From: Susan on 14 Oct 2009 19:38
On Tue, 13 Oct 2009 01:10:39 -0600, Oldphart
<mfj1952deletethis(a)cox.net> wrote:

>Susan wrote:
>> From researching bebuilding the starter it became clear the rebuild is
>> simple -- it's removing the starter that's not fun. I found excellent
>> instructions for a 1991 4Runner 3VZE (everything should be the same as
>> my truck for this job) here:
>>
>> http://www.yotatech.com/f128/starter-replacement-2nd-gen-4runner-76358/
>>
>> ...and I was tempted. After sleeping on it overnight, I decided to
>> call the auto shop to ask what they charge, figuring if it was around
>> $200 bucks, I'd save myself the aggrivation. (I was more worried about
>> getting the starter BACK IN, as those retaining bolts are not easy to
>> get to from the sound/look of it... I pictured myself on my back with
>> a bolt precariously balanced on the end of a 2-foot extension, in a
>> swivel joint, trying to line it up to start the first few threads, and
>> hearing the CLINK as it drops down through the wishbones for the 40th
>> time in a row...) They charge $225, so I dropped it off.
>>
>> I'm not proud, but my truck is probably relieved.

>LOL......I love happy endings!!!!

Not so happy after all! :) (See my reply to Handyman.) But at least my
truck is starting again....
From: Handyman on 15 Oct 2009 08:39
On Oct 14, 4:37 pm, Susan <su...(a)rooftop.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Oct 2009 05:26:59 -0700 (PDT), Handyman <sgt...(a)yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >On Oct 9, 2:10 pm, Susan <su...(a)rooftop.com> wrote:
> >> From researching bebuilding the starter it became clear the rebuild is
> >> simple -- it's removing the starter that's not fun.  I found excellent
> >> instructions for a 1991 4Runner 3VZE (everything should be the same as
> >> my truck for this job) here:
>
> >>http://www.yotatech.com/f128/starter-replacement-2nd-gen-4runner-76358/
>
> >> ...and I was tempted. After sleeping on it overnight, I decided to
> >> call the auto shop to ask what they charge, figuring if it was around
> >> $200 bucks, I'd save myself the aggrivation. (I was more worried about
> >> getting the starter BACK IN, as those retaining bolts are not easy to
> >> get to from the sound/look of it... I pictured myself on my back with
> >> a bolt precariously balanced on the end of a 2-foot extension, in a
> >> swivel joint, trying to line it up to start the first few threads, and
> >> hearing the CLINK as it drops down through the wishbones for the 40th
> >> time in a row...) They charge $225, so I dropped it off.
>
> >> I'm not proud, but my truck is probably relieved.
>
> >The toughest part of the starter removal / installation is orienting
> >it correctly to slip it out through the access hole in the inner
> >fender.  Starting the bolts is easy, you just lay flat on your back
> >and start them by hand from under the starter, then put the long
> >extension on and tighten them up.  
>
> This is good to know, because if the starter ever acts up again, I
> might do this. But on my particular truck, I don't know if I can even
> reach the starter from under the truck. It sits on 33" tires, and has
> a 4" lift kit. Getting up through the wishbones to the starter might
> be longer than my arm, even with my body pressed up as high as it
> could go. I just remember looking WAY UP at that starter from under
> the truck thinking, "Are you kidding me?!" I had to find a 2-foot
> dowel just to tap it.  
>
> >My assumption is that the starter
> >contacts aren't really the problem if you initially were not hearing
> >any clicks when you attempted to start the truck.  If the contacts
> >were the issue you would have heard the click of the solenoid pulling
> >the plunger in to hit the contacts but then the starter wouldn't
> >turn.  
>
> In the beginning I heard no clicks. No nothing. Then the last few
> times I tried, I heard a single soft click coming from what sounded
> like the area of the dash behind or under the glove box, which is the
> general location of the starter. I only heard it because it was at
> night and everything was very quiet. It is possible it was making that
> single click all along, but it was too noisy to hear it previously.
>
> > You said you had no click so I would think the solenoid got a
> >little corroded sitting for those 10 weeks and then wouldn't pull the
> >plunger in until you gave it that love tap with the hammer.  Hopefully
> >if it is a reputable shop they will clean or at least check the
> >solenoid too.  Best of luck.
>
> I was very unhappy with what happened, as it turned out. What I wanted
> to do was ask the shop to pull it, let me rebuild it, then have them
> put it back. I wanted to do this because I don't trust rebuilds unless
> you see and do it yourself. You never know if people actually do a
> good job or not. But I expected the shop to do the rebuild, and never
> drempt they would agree to pull it for me, so I just told them I
> wanted it rebuilt. They said they would replace it and turn in the
> core. I said no, I want it rebuilt. So they said ok, they would do
> that for the same price. Quote was $225. I figured most of it was
> labor. To make sure they rebuilt it completely, I asked for all the
> old parts. I told them I wanted to eyeball them.
>
> Turns out they do NOT do rebuilds themselves, but send out to a shop.
> (Had I known this, I *would* have asked them to let ME rebuild it.) So
> I go to pick it up, and pay the bill, and they hand me "the parts."
> Two contacts, and what looks like a broken off black plastic part with
> a spade connector, like from where the ignition wire fits on. I asked
> about the plunger and brushes. He said "that's all they gave me." I
> was a little irate. The labor was $90 which was fine, but I was
> charged $115 for a "rebuild" when all they apparently did was replace
> $11 contacts. And what was with the ignition part broken off? Did that
> mean they kept my original Toyota starter, and gave me a crappy after
> market starter after all?  (When I got to the shop to pick it up, I
> peeked through the access panel and it actually looked like a
> different starter to me, but I figured it was because the old one was
> dirty. This was before I knew anything.)
>
> So I tell the guy I am not happy that I paid $115 for two contacts,
> and that I wanted it completely rebuilt. He says he doesn't have a
> good answer for me and that he'll call the shop Monday and ask what
> they did.
>
> So he called me this morning (Wed). I didn't really expect to hear
> back from him, so I give them credit for following up. In a nutshell,
> even though he didn't say this all in so many words, the place only
> replaces worn parts in a rebuild, not all parts. (Which makes me mad
> because the brushes could have been the problem, and leaving it up to
> THEM is not right because they replace as little as possible to make
> as much profit as possible... PLUS I have to pay full labor to have it
> taken out and put back if something else goes wrong!) And the other
> weird thing was, he said this particular starter of mine does not have
> a plunger. He said it's a heavy duty starter, called a ... damn. I
> can't remember. But I asked what wore out the contacts if not the ring
> at the base of the plunger. He didn't say anything. And I asked about
> the brushes, and again he said, "that's all the parts I got." He said
> they've been doing biz for 25 yrs with the other shop, and he
> understands why I'm mad, but he's in the middle and can't do anything
> but offer me $50 credit on future work.
>
> Life is too short to be upset, but I was not happy. I told him if
> something goes wrong with the starter again, I want the $50 credit
> towards labor to pull it, and *I* want to rebuild it. He said ok.
>
> The moral of the story is.... never let anyone else do your rebuild!
>
> Btw, have you heard of a starter without a plunger???

All starters have some sort of solenoid type plunger, that is what
engages the starter gear with the flywheel to start the vehicle. Once
the engine starts the plunger retracts and pulls the starter gear back
away from the flywheel. If they didn't have a solenoid type plunger
mechanism the gears would be engaged all of the time and your poor
starter would be turning at 50,000 rpm when your engine was idling.
(to say the least, the starter wouldn't last long in that scenario).
The Toyota design is very good, the starter gear meshes with the
flywheel before the starter ever turns. This prevents chewing up the
flywheel and starter teeth if the solenoid is slow at engaging the
gears. In many other manufacturers the starter actually starts to
turn before the gears have meshed. Anyone ever hear the grinding of
an older Chevy of Ford starter against a flywheel on a cold morning?
I remember people having to try starting several times before they
actually would get the starter to engage with the flywheel, and each
time taking a little off the width of the flywheel teeth. I've pulled
some old starters with nearly 50% of the width of the teeth worn
away. (I've never seen this happen with Toyota starters).
From: Susan on 15 Oct 2009 18:37
On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 05:39:36 -0700 (PDT), Handyman <sgt_az(a)yahoo.com>
wrote:

>> Re: shop guying saying this starter has no plunger


>All starters have some sort of solenoid type plunger, that is what
>engages the starter gear with the flywheel to start the vehicle.

Right. Plus what would have worn the contacts if not the ring at the
base of the plunger??

> Once
>the engine starts the plunger retracts and pulls the starter gear back
>away from the flywheel. If they didn't have a solenoid type plunger
>mechanism the gears would be engaged all of the time and your poor
>starter would be turning at 50,000 rpm when your engine was idling.
>(to say the least, the starter wouldn't last long in that scenario).
>The Toyota design is very good, the starter gear meshes with the
>flywheel before the starter ever turns. This prevents chewing up the
>flywheel and starter teeth if the solenoid is slow at engaging the
>gears. In many other manufacturers the starter actually starts to
>turn before the gears have meshed. Anyone ever hear the grinding of
>an older Chevy of Ford starter against a flywheel on a cold morning?
>I remember people having to try starting several times before they
>actually would get the starter to engage with the flywheel, and each
>time taking a little off the width of the flywheel teeth. I've pulled
>some old starters with nearly 50% of the width of the teeth worn
>away. (I've never seen this happen with Toyota starters).

Well I hope to heck 'the rebuild shop' gave me back the original
starter like I asked for then, but I don't know. What makes me doubt
that is the broken off plastic part with the spade connector that is
NOT a replaceable part, AFAIK. Argh. I can't think about it anymore.
It makes me sick. The only people who should have older cars are
people who know how to work on them. Taking an old car to a shop,
especially if you are a woman, is almost a guarantee of getting ripped
off, even when you educate yourself to avoid it!
First  |  Prev  |  Next  |  Last
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Prev: Brakes unable to stop runaway Lexus in California?
Next: Toyota/Lexus Runaway Fix Not Limited to Floor Mats (!)