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From: Oldphart on 6 Oct 2009 03:21
Susan wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Oct 2009 21:36:10 -0700, Jeff <Not(a)dot.net> wrote:
>
>> I just reread you original post. I believe I found a clue, "Alarm
>> system is off as it should be..."
>> "...ALARM SYSTEM..."!!!
>>
>> Aftermarket, of course, with "Starter Disable"!
>> I would advise to tear it out.
>
> and...
>
> On Mon, 05 Oct 2009 01:25:51 -0600, Oldphart
> <mfj1952deletethis(a)cox.net> wrote:
>
>> I vote for the alarm also. 1993 toyota 4wd had the batter go dead,
>> changed it and had to reset the Audiovox alarm with the keyfob and the
>> pushbutton switch. In my case, taking it to an alarm store to have them
>> reset the system was costly so I let my son take it to school and the
>> teenage nerds in his shop class set things right. I vote to energize
>> the alarm also. It probably defaults to an Open Circuit when power is
>> cut disabling the starter as part of the antitheft feature.
>
> Okay. I'm all for it being the alarm's fault, but I'm not so sure.
> Here's a little background and you can tell me if you still think it's
> the alarm:
>
> First, this truck only had 2 owners before me, and the original guy
> who purchased it new had everything put it in at the time of purchase
> that was state of the art, at that time. This included a mobile phone
> with antenna on the back window, wired to the dash... this was in
> 1991, mind you, when mobile phones were gigantic and rare. He had the
> alarm system installed too, (if it did not come as an option), but he
> did everything top of the line and the alarm has been in it from day
> one. (This truck has power locks, and when I press the keyfob to lock
> the truck, the alarm automatically engages.)
>
> Now comes the part that might change your mind. :) I have owned the
> truck since 2001, and during this time I have disconnected the battery
> many times. A few times to change batteries, other times when I was
> working on the truck and needed to disconnect the battery to do what I
> was doing. Whenever I have disconnected the battery, the alarm
> triggers as I am loosening the terminals (safety thing), then again as
> I am reconnecting it (same deal). I DREAD having to disconnect the
> battery for that reason.... the alarm is so darn loud. But the point
> is, it has never given me a problem afterwards. The truck has always
> started right up.
>
> Also, when I parked the truck last (last time I drove it, when
> everything was peachy), I parked it in my backyard, so I did not lock
> it. Meaning the alarm was not engaged. Now weeks later, I walk out and
> go to start it, and ... nothing. AND the battery did not die during
> this period or even get weak b/c a solar panel was keeping it charged.
>
> Nevertheless, when the truck would not start I wondered about the
> alarm system just because I was trying to cover everything it might
> be, so I threw the alarm's toggle switch and tried starting, but it
> didn't make a diff. I put the toggle back. I also sat inside the truck
> and put the alarm on, then took it off, and tried again.
>
> So, I do not want to 'tear out the alarm' if it isn't the problem, as
> it's a good alarm and has never caused me problems. And I have never
> had to "reset it" after losing power.... but I guess it could have a
> "state" I don't know about, though after 9 years of owning this truck
> that would be a little surprising!
>
> Do you guys still think it's the alarm, or does that scenario seem
> less likely now? (I really wish I could have elminated some things
> today, but was helping my folks all day.)
I wish I could say one way or another that the alarm has nothing to
do with it, but if the lights come on, the horn works, the radio plays,
and all of those things stay on, then there is something that is
preventing power from going to the starter solenoid. The one thing I do
know on a good alarm system is they have a small capacitor or battery
backup that keeps the settings on the alarm system. Mine is a cheaper
version of an Audiovox alarm system. When I disconnected the battery
on my truck, every time I went to lock the doors with the keyfob, the
alarm would go off and not stop till I put the key in the switch.
I was going to rip my alarm out for that same reason till I found out
that whomever it was that installed it, put the break in the wires to
the starter solenoid someplace that was not easy for me to see, let
be able to access.
I did not have a book for the alarm system for my truck and I identified
my alarm by going to Audiovox and created a free account. From there, I
chose a picture of the keyfob that came with my alarm and printed the
documents that were needed to reset the alarm back to original install.
As a matter of fact, I let my son take it to his shop class, and those
kids, who were smarter than I, did the reprogramming in a matter of
minutes.
If you can find the relay that is engergized by turning the key to the
"start" position, that would be a big start.
I have a wiring diagram for a 1993 toyota pickup 4wd ex cab which most
likely will be very similar to yours. I would be glad to send a copy
if you would like. Simple trouble shooting can start there and then
follow the trail of power till you lose it. Most likely, there is a
relay somewhere that is not energizing.
From: Susan on 5 Oct 2009 23:27
On Sun, 04 Oct 2009 21:31:55 -0700, Jeff <Not(a)dot.net> wrote:

>Susan wrote:
>>>> You may have to check the contacts on the neutral start
>>>> switch.
>>> Okay, I will look for info on where it's located.
>>
>> I Googled to find it's on the right side of the transmission housing,
>> and also Googled for a picture of it. I also found this:
>>
>> http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Where_is_the_neutral_saftey_switch_on_a_1991_4WD_Toyota_Pickup_and_how_would_you_replace_it
>>
>> but it isn't entirely clear to me what he's saying because I'm not
>> clear on his orientation. Maybe once I start it, it will become clear,
>> but if there's anything you want to add... ? :)
>
>By "checking the contacts", I believe they mean, "In park or neutral you
>should have continuity between the 2nd and 3rd terminals from the right
>on the bottom looking into the connector with the snap clip on top."
>ibid (wiki.answers)
>This would be "on your back, under the car". Not a enticing proposition!

My truck has a 4" lift and 33" tires, so it sits real high and is easy
to get beneath. My problem remains that I'm looking at a foreign
country under there. Maybe I can ask a neighbor guy to come point out
the starter and neutral switch for me... if I clear the alarm as an
issue.

>This switch rarely goes bad, but when it does, your symptoms match.
>Alternately, the wires going to the switch may have come loose.
>
>But ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do! btw: this switch is very $pendy, so
>you need to determine if it is, if fact, bad, before buying a new one.
>Or, maybe you'll be "lucky" and have loose wires.

That would be lucky indeed. And I want to check for that, but it still
seems odd that the wires would go from being secure and fine to
completely loose to the point there is no signal getting through...
without an interim where I have periodic trouble. But stranger things
have happened, right?

>Good Luck!

THANKS. :)
From: Susan on 6 Oct 2009 00:17
On Sun, 04 Oct 2009 21:36:10 -0700, Jeff <Not(a)dot.net> wrote:

>I just reread you original post. I believe I found a clue, "Alarm
>system is off as it should be..."
>"...ALARM SYSTEM..."!!!
>
>Aftermarket, of course, with "Starter Disable"!
>I would advise to tear it out.

and...

On Mon, 05 Oct 2009 01:25:51 -0600, Oldphart
<mfj1952deletethis(a)cox.net> wrote:

>I vote for the alarm also. 1993 toyota 4wd had the batter go dead,
>changed it and had to reset the Audiovox alarm with the keyfob and the
>pushbutton switch. In my case, taking it to an alarm store to have them
>reset the system was costly so I let my son take it to school and the
>teenage nerds in his shop class set things right. I vote to energize
>the alarm also. It probably defaults to an Open Circuit when power is
>cut disabling the starter as part of the antitheft feature.

Okay. I'm all for it being the alarm's fault, but I'm not so sure.
Here's a little background and you can tell me if you still think it's
the alarm:

First, this truck only had 2 owners before me, and the original guy
who purchased it new had everything put it in at the time of purchase
that was state of the art, at that time. This included a mobile phone
with antenna on the back window, wired to the dash... this was in
1991, mind you, when mobile phones were gigantic and rare. He had the
alarm system installed too, (if it did not come as an option), but he
did everything top of the line and the alarm has been in it from day
one. (This truck has power locks, and when I press the keyfob to lock
the truck, the alarm automatically engages.)

Now comes the part that might change your mind. :) I have owned the
truck since 2001, and during this time I have disconnected the battery
many times. A few times to change batteries, other times when I was
working on the truck and needed to disconnect the battery to do what I
was doing. Whenever I have disconnected the battery, the alarm
triggers as I am loosening the terminals (safety thing), then again as
I am reconnecting it (same deal). I DREAD having to disconnect the
battery for that reason.... the alarm is so darn loud. But the point
is, it has never given me a problem afterwards. The truck has always
started right up.

Also, when I parked the truck last (last time I drove it, when
everything was peachy), I parked it in my backyard, so I did not lock
it. Meaning the alarm was not engaged. Now weeks later, I walk out and
go to start it, and ... nothing. AND the battery did not die during
this period or even get weak b/c a solar panel was keeping it charged.

Nevertheless, when the truck would not start I wondered about the
alarm system just because I was trying to cover everything it might
be, so I threw the alarm's toggle switch and tried starting, but it
didn't make a diff. I put the toggle back. I also sat inside the truck
and put the alarm on, then took it off, and tried again.

So, I do not want to 'tear out the alarm' if it isn't the problem, as
it's a good alarm and has never caused me problems. And I have never
had to "reset it" after losing power.... but I guess it could have a
"state" I don't know about, though after 9 years of owning this truck
that would be a little surprising!

Do you guys still think it's the alarm, or does that scenario seem
less likely now? (I really wish I could have elminated some things
today, but was helping my folks all day.)
From: clare on 6 Oct 2009 22:37
On Mon, 05 Oct 2009 21:17:51 -0700, Susan <susan(a)rooftop.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 04 Oct 2009 21:36:10 -0700, Jeff <Not(a)dot.net> wrote:
>
>>I just reread you original post. I believe I found a clue, "Alarm
>>system is off as it should be..."
>>"...ALARM SYSTEM..."!!!
>>
>>Aftermarket, of course, with "Starter Disable"!
>>I would advise to tear it out.
>
>and...
>
>On Mon, 05 Oct 2009 01:25:51 -0600, Oldphart
><mfj1952deletethis(a)cox.net> wrote:
>
>>I vote for the alarm also. 1993 toyota 4wd had the batter go dead,
>>changed it and had to reset the Audiovox alarm with the keyfob and the
>>pushbutton switch. In my case, taking it to an alarm store to have them
>>reset the system was costly so I let my son take it to school and the
>>teenage nerds in his shop class set things right. I vote to energize
>>the alarm also. It probably defaults to an Open Circuit when power is
>>cut disabling the starter as part of the antitheft feature.
>
>Okay. I'm all for it being the alarm's fault, but I'm not so sure.
>Here's a little background and you can tell me if you still think it's
>the alarm:
>
>First, this truck only had 2 owners before me, and the original guy
>who purchased it new had everything put it in at the time of purchase
>that was state of the art, at that time. This included a mobile phone
>with antenna on the back window, wired to the dash... this was in
>1991, mind you, when mobile phones were gigantic and rare. He had the
>alarm system installed too, (if it did not come as an option), but he
>did everything top of the line and the alarm has been in it from day
>one. (This truck has power locks, and when I press the keyfob to lock
>the truck, the alarm automatically engages.)
>
>Now comes the part that might change your mind. :) I have owned the
>truck since 2001, and during this time I have disconnected the battery
>many times. A few times to change batteries, other times when I was
>working on the truck and needed to disconnect the battery to do what I
>was doing. Whenever I have disconnected the battery, the alarm
>triggers as I am loosening the terminals (safety thing), then again as
>I am reconnecting it (same deal). I DREAD having to disconnect the
>battery for that reason.... the alarm is so darn loud. But the point
>is, it has never given me a problem afterwards. The truck has always
>started right up.
>
>Also, when I parked the truck last (last time I drove it, when
>everything was peachy), I parked it in my backyard, so I did not lock
>it. Meaning the alarm was not engaged. Now weeks later, I walk out and
>go to start it, and ... nothing. AND the battery did not die during
>this period or even get weak b/c a solar panel was keeping it charged.
>
>Nevertheless, when the truck would not start I wondered about the
>alarm system just because I was trying to cover everything it might
>be, so I threw the alarm's toggle switch and tried starting, but it
>didn't make a diff. I put the toggle back. I also sat inside the truck
>and put the alarm on, then took it off, and tried again.
>
>So, I do not want to 'tear out the alarm' if it isn't the problem, as
>it's a good alarm and has never caused me problems. And I have never
>had to "reset it" after losing power.... but I guess it could have a
>"state" I don't know about, though after 9 years of owning this truck
>that would be a little surprising!
>
>Do you guys still think it's the alarm, or does that scenario seem
>less likely now? (I really wish I could have elminated some things
>today, but was helping my folks all day.)


99.999% it is not the alarm.

I'm coming in late, so please forgive me if I'm asking questions that
have been answered.

I was Toyota service manager back just before that truck was made.

Does the horn work?
How about the headlights?
If the headlights work, do they go out when you try to start the
truck?
If the horn doesn't work and/or the headlights don'y work and/or they
go out when you try to start it you have either a bad battery or a bad
connection- on either the power or ground side.

First check is terminals - must be clean and bright - and tight.
Next is the ground connection. Same as above. put a battery jumper
cable from the battery - to a good clean engine ground and try again.

If no joy, go to a clean body/chassis ground and try again.

Still no joy?

Is this a 4 cyl or a six?
if a 4 the starter can be seen on the right? side of the block(just
going from memory) facing forward from the frot of the
transmission/bell housing. It will have 2 wires(or at least terminals
- could be more wires) - one BIG battery cable with 12 or 14mm nut,
and one smaller wire - either 8mm nut or slip-on type connector. make
sure both are connected and "clean, bright, and tight".
Do NOT attempt to tighten or even apply a wrench without disconnecting
the battery - (ground) connection.

There should be 12 volts on the big one at all times, and on the
little one when cranking (or attempting to).
If there is power on the big one, but not the little one, you have a
control circuit problem - bad ign switch, bat neutral safety switch,
or that 0.0001% chance - an alarm problem.
Jumping power from the big terminal to the little one should crank the
engine. if it doesn't, and all other (previous) tests check out, you
need a starter..Or at .least need ir repaired. A worn or stuck starter
brush can prevent the starter solenoid from pulling in - particularly
if there is any resistance in the control circuit. Whacking the
starter with a block of wood while attempting to crank will often get
it to start - at least once- in order to drive it to a shop to have
the starter done.
If it is a six, the starter location will be harder to get to, but the
tests remain the same.

Keep us up to date with what you find.
From: Susan on 7 Oct 2009 14:43
On Tue, 06 Oct 2009 01:21:11 -0600, Oldphart
<mfj1952deletethis(a)cox.net> wrote:

>I wish I could say one way or another that the alarm has nothing to
>do with it, but if the lights come on, the horn works, the radio plays,
>and all of those things stay on, then there is something that is
>preventing power from going to the starter solenoid. [...]

Righto.

>If you can find the relay that is engergized by turning the key to the
>"start" position, that would be a big start.

I double-checked the relay I found under the hood (over the passenger
fender in the fuse block box), and according to the awful Chilton
manual I have, this *is* the starter relay. (I say awful because, for
example, the picture that matches my truck is for the 4Runner, while
the picture that is supposed to by my 1991 truck does not match what
that block looks like at all.)

>I have a wiring diagram for a 1993 toyota pickup 4wd ex cab which most
>likely will be very similar to yours. I would be glad to send a copy
>if you would like. Simple trouble shooting can start there and then
>follow the trail of power till you lose it. Most likely, there is a
>relay somewhere that is not energizing.

I would very much like a copy of the wiring diagram, even for future
use. If I cannot find one online, I will email you with my mailing
address, if you really don't mind putting it in the mail.

I just got back from PepBoys where I was going to pick up a new
starter relay, but they have to order it, and it will cost close to
$30 by the time they slap CA tax on it. I was thinking it was going to
be $10 bucks. Not that I mind $30 if I know it will fix it, but if it
doesn't I will have to buy other stuff, so I either want to find a
cheaper vendor or test this relay somehow to see if it's actually bad.
Thanks again for all of your help!
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