Toyota Throttle Electronics Easily Confused
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From: ACAR on 24 Feb 2010 22:27 On Feb 23, 8:47 pm, john <johngd...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > "In earlier testimony, David Gilbert, a Southern Illinois University > professor, tells the panel he was able to produce in a lab environment > a sudden-acceleration incident using a Toyota vehicle, in essence by > introducing a short between two circuits. > super! now ask Gilbert to reproduce his results on a Camry. and/or ask Gilbert to visit a factory to see if there's a chance that the circuits may be shorted during assembly.
From: Uncle_vito on 25 Feb 2010 00:19 Made in Japan only applies to the accelerator fix. If it is a software problem, all bets are off. Could be in cars no matter where made since they do noit know the cause. How can they say which cars are not affected? Vito "Mr Ed" <ecamin(a)earthlink.net> wrote in message news:H9KdnXTvQ_hTFBjWnZ2dnUVZ_jCdnZ2d(a)earthlink.com... > Years ago I had a Chrysler product that developed a engine problem that > created a code. After that the car would only max out at 20mph. Just > enough to limp into the dealer to fix or re-set the code. 20 years ago > before I retired, I tested eletronic products for Test House approvals > (UL, ETL, CSA, etc). Our purpose was to assure that no matter what > internal device failed, it didn't create a deadly problem. Why can't > Toyota prove that no matter what component failed, short or open, that the > car will not exceed a safe speed? I don't believe they did their homework > properly. Removing my floor mat in my Prius is a joke. There is no way it > can jam the pedal that my foot on the mat couldn't move it away from the > pedal within seconds. The only reason I removed it (per the recall) is so > if my car becomes a run away missile at least my heirs can become > Millionaires. That doesn't comfort me. Re-designing the pedal is only a > band-aide to the real problem. Since my car was made in Japan, I'm not > included. > > Mr Ed > http://www.ed-camin.com > http://home.earthlink.net/~bcamin/betty.htm > http://www.mountairykiwanis.org > http://www.ma-artleague.org > http://home.earthlink.net/~j3dogs/index.htm > http://home.earthlink.net/~donnahayes/index.htm > "JoeSpareBedroom" <newstrash(a)frontiernet.net> wrote in message > news:4ifhn.17771$Dv7.16146(a)newsfe17.iad... >> "Hachiroku ????" <Trueno(a)e86.GTS> wrote in message >> news:hm3v6o$qkn$1(a)news.eternal-september.org... >>> On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 06:55:23 -0500, JoeSpareBedroom wrote: >>> >>>> "jim beam" <me(a)privacy.net> wrote in message >>>> news:o4SdnZnR94D1KBnWnZ2dnUVZ_j6dnZ2d(a)speakeasy.net... >>>>> On 02/23/2010 05:47 PM, john wrote: >>>>>> The floor mats and sticking pedal accounts for only 30% of the >>>>>> problems. The true cause of sudden acceleration is still not known so >>>>>> no real solution is possible. IMO it's the electronics. >>>>> >>>>> "in your opinion"? are you a software engineer? are you an >>>>> electrical >>>>> engineer? are you /any/ form of engineer? >>>> >>>> >>>> He can swap a hard drive while blindfolded, and he knows some >>>> geologists. >>> >>> Look again. You're talking about the wrong person. >>> >>> Gee, you've NEVER been wrong before!!! >> >> >> Oops. >> >> > > > >
From: Neo on 25 Feb 2010 07:02 On Feb 23, 8:47 pm, john <johngd...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > The floor mats and sticking pedal accounts for only 30% of the > problems. The true cause of sudden acceleration is still not known so > no real solution is possible. IMO it's the electronics. > > "In earlier testimony, David Gilbert, a Southern Illinois University > professor, tells the panel he was able to produce in a lab environment > a sudden-acceleration incident using a Toyota vehicle, in essence by > introducing a short between two circuits. > > Gilbert, whose research was sponsored by consumer advocacy firm Safety > Research & Strategies, says it was fairly simple to confuse the Toyota > electronics, but he has so far been unable to introduce a similar > failure in the electronic controls for a Buick Lucerne." > > http://wardsauto.com/home/toyota_still_looking_100223/ From the preliminary report/testimony, Dr Gilbert had shorted out two sensors to the accelerator making the ECU believe that the pedal was being continually pressed. Dr Gilbert argues to Toyota that the accelerator circuitry lacks and need a fail-safe system for when this condition occurs. Toyota's engineers were able to reproduce this condition but said that what Dr. Gilbert did amounted to "cheating" ( that is to say that the conditions Dr Gilbert used to induce acceleration could not happen on its own in the real world without explicit human intervention). Dr Gilbert argued that the condition he created in the two unnamed accelerator sensor circuits could be caused by condensation which would evaporate before crash investigators could identify it; however, as of this time, there is no evidence to support this.
From: Tegger on 25 Feb 2010 07:22 On Feb 23, 7:47�pm, john <johngd...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > The floor mats and sticking pedal accounts for only 30% of the > problems. The true cause of sudden acceleration is still not known so > no real solution is possible. IMO it's the electronics. Or it's simple pedal misapplication, which is the most common cause of SUA by far, and is essentially out of /any/ automaker's control. > >> "In earlier testimony, David Gilbert, a Southern Illinois University >> professor, tells the panel he was able to produce in a lab environment >> a sudden-acceleration incident using a Toyota vehicle, in essence by >> introducing a short between two circuits. >> >> Gilbert, whose research was sponsored by consumer advocacy firm Safety >> Research & Strategies, says it was fairly simple to confuse the Toyota >> electronics, but he has so far been unable to introduce a similar >> failure in the electronic controls for a Buick Lucerne." The lab that Toyota retained managed to reproduce Gilbert's result, but said that they found it extremely unlikely that such an event could actually occur in the real world. -- Tegger
From: Vic Smith on 25 Feb 2010 09:04
On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:22:58 +0000 (UTC), Tegger <invalid(a)invalid.inv> wrote: > On Feb 23, 7:47 pm, john <johngd...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: >> The floor mats and sticking pedal accounts for only 30% of the >> problems. The true cause of sudden acceleration is still not known so >> no real solution is possible. IMO it's the electronics. > > > >Or it's simple pedal misapplication, which is the most common cause of SUA >by far, and is essentially out of /any/ automaker's control. > > > >> >>> "In earlier testimony, David Gilbert, a Southern Illinois University >>> professor, tells the panel he was able to produce in a lab environment >>> a sudden-acceleration incident using a Toyota vehicle, in essence by >>> introducing a short between two circuits. >>> >>> Gilbert, whose research was sponsored by consumer advocacy firm Safety >>> Research & Strategies, says it was fairly simple to confuse the Toyota >>> electronics, but he has so far been unable to introduce a similar >>> failure in the electronic controls for a Buick Lucerne." > > > >The lab that Toyota retained managed to reproduce Gilbert's result, but >said that they found it extremely unlikely that such an event could >actually occur in the real world. I've been following this pretty closely. since I'm retired (-: Watched hours of hearings, read many articles, etc. A few points. Exponent, the lab Toyota hired, is suspect, because their client is Toyota. Just works that way. You need an independent lab. Gilbert's findings, though he is sincere, are suspect, because they haven't been tied to the real world. The problem is - nobody has really defined a widespread problem. Sure, the mats - that's been taken care. The sticky pedals - that's been taken care of. The need for brake over ride circuitry - that will happen. The Lexus engine shutdown issue - don't know what's in the works, but I expect that delayed button will be replaced with a positive instant means to shot down - could still be a button. What's left - from what I've seen - is a couple believable cases of "unintended acceleration" Where the engine revs on it's own to the limiter. That weird stuff happened to the Smith woman who testified, and it happened to a guy who testified on the second day. These were clear cases of electronic wildly controlling the engine with no human input. Nobody has figured those out. Might have nothing to do with pedal circuitry. I've mentioned before I experienced this in '85 TBI 2.0 Cavalier. Didn't go wide open, but would push the car to 50mph with no pedal input. Brakes easily handled it. Turned out it was the ECU, which failed entirely a maybe a week after the problem started. Most likely an attached scanner could have quickly found the issue, because though it was intermittent, you didn't have to wait long for it to happen, and it could be reproduced just by driving for about 5 miles. But it is possible that a confluence of conditions messing with modern design electronic signals, combined with hardware anomalies/tolerances can make this kind of thing happen again, and it will be hell to reproduce it. That's why brake overrides and a simple means to shut down are necessities. My bottom line on this is the big problems are Toyota not jumping hard on the mat and pedal problems, the Toyota memo about saving $100 million by forestalling recalls, the oily relationship between mfgs and NHTSA because of revolving doors, and - the biggest of all - the cell phone call from the car of the highway patrolman as he and his family went to flaming death. That cell phone call is what has really screwed Toyota. But hell, the car was a loner from a Toyota dealership, the previous driver had the same issue, and I think the mat issue was supposed to be taken care of. So they bought that one with eyes wide open. With millions of cars on the road this "unintended acceleration" won't go away. Glitches are going to happen. But it can be contained. Aside from that lame delayed Lexus shutdown, I certainly don't think Toyotas are more dangerous than other cars, But I'm not the general public or Congress. --Vic |