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From: Tankfixer on 25 Jul 2010 20:00 In article <Xns9DBC54262ACBChopewell(a)216.196.97.130>, rdsandman(a)comcast [remove].net says... > > Michael Ejercito <mejercit(a)hotmail.com> wrote in > news:f9397b30-34f0-4b9c-b92a-fc4c2da48972(a)k8g2000prh.googlegroups.com: > > > On Jul 20, 9:25�am, Lookout <mrLook...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > >> On Tue, 20 Jul 2010 08:47:01 -0700 (PDT), Michael Ejercito > >> > >> > >> > >> <mejer...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > >> >On Jul 20, 4:24�am, Lookout <mrLook...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > >> >> On Mon, 19 Jul 2010 23:09:19 -0500, Liberal Hypocrite Detector > >> >> >Um, no. > >> > >> >> >http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/history/q0185.shtml > >> >> >George W. Bush's military service began in 1968 when he enlisted > >> >> >in t > > he > >> >> >Texas Air National Guard after graduating with a bachelor's > >> >> >degree in history from Yale University. The aircraft he was > >> >> >ultimately trained > > to fly > >> >> >was the F-102 Delta Dagger, popularly known as "the Deuce." The > >> >> >F-102 > > may > >> >> >have been old but was far from useless, and it continued to serve > >> >> >in > > large > >> >> >numbers with both Air Force and Air National Guard units well > >> >> >into th > > e > >> >> >1970s. Furthermore, the F-102 was deployed to Vietnam throughout > >> >> >most > > of > >> >> >the conflict, and the aircraft proved its value early by > >> >> >deterring No > > rth > >> >> >Vietnamese pilots from crossing the border to attack the South. > >> >> >Perha > > ps > >> >> >more importantly, the F-102 and its Air National Guard pilots > >> >> >perform > > ed a > >> >> >vital role in defending the continental United States from > >> >> >nuclear at > > tack. > >> > >> >> >http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-102a-ops > >> >> >.ht > > m > >> >> >Four F-102s were sent from Clark AB, P. I., to South Vietnam in > >> >> >March > > 1962, > >> >> >after radars had detected low flying, unidentified aircraft along > >> >> >the Cambodian border. This started a series of rotations every 6 > >> >> >weeks by > > Navy � > >> >> >EA-1F all weather fighters and USAF F-102s to Tan Son Nhut. The > >> >> >rotat > > ion > >> >> >ended in May 1963 due to base overcrowding. Nonetheless, from the > >> >> >sum > > mer of > >> >> >1963 to mid 1964, Thirteenth Air Force conducted no-notice > >> >> >deployment > > s of > >> >> >F-102s to South Vietnam and brief training flights to Tan Son > >> >> >Nhut an > > d Da > >> >> >Nang. The small number of aircraft �committed to SEA air defense > >> >> >be > > fore > >> >> >1965 tripled by the end of 1966. At that time 12 F-102s stood > >> >> >alert i > > n > >> >> >South Vietnam (6 at Bien Hoa and 6 at Da Nang) and another 10 in > >> >> >Thai > > land > >> >> >(6 at Udorn and 4 at Don Muang). Little change occurred in 1967 > >> >> >and 1 > > 968, > >> >> >the Air Force keeping a minimum of 14 F-102s on 5 minute alert > >> >> >with t > > he > >> >> >remainder of the force on 1 hour call. F-102 operations �in SEA > >> >> >end > > ed in > >> >> >December 1969 (The last F-102 squadron at Clark was inactivated. > >> >> >Howe > > ver, a > >> >> >few F-102s remained at the Royal Thai Air Base of Don Muang until > >> >> >the summer of 1970.) with a remarkable safety record. In almost > >> >> >10 years > > of > >> >> >flying air defense and a few combat air patrols for SAC B-52s, > >> >> >just 1 > > 5 F- > >> >> >102s were lost. > >> > >> >> His unit was at 100% when he was allowed to join. That's been > >> >> documented repeatedly. > >> > � Documented repeatedly by WHOM? > >> > >> During the election. > > The 1968 election? > > > >> > >> > >> > >> >> There were NO NEW F-102 units be sent to Viet Nam WHEN HE JOINED. > >> >> Therefore HE COULD NOT GO and his daddy knew that. The only one > >> >> flying them were AD Air Force. > >> > >> > � And there was some sort of guarantee that it would not change in > >> >the future? > >> > >> Yes. It was OBSOLETE for combat in View Nam. > > And when was it declared obsolete? > > Sometime in the late 60s and early 70s. It was very viable for what it > got used for and that was never a design criteria. It was designed and > built to be an interceptor, not a rocket platform. Compared to the aircraft that NV could field it was very capable
From: Hachiroku ハチロク on 25 Jul 2010 20:40 On Sun, 25 Jul 2010 16:59:21 -0700, Tankfixer wrote: > In article <Xns9DBC2BF509294Wereofftoseethewizrd(a)216.196.97.142>, > grey_ghost471-newsgroups(a)yahoo.com says... >> >> Tankfixer <paul.carrier(a)gmail.com> wrote in >> news:MPG.26aff360819aa9159896f9(a)news.eternal-september.org: >> >> > In article <c5c6f202-d1d8-4274-a834- >> > e8114b0d650a(a)p22g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, mejercit(a)hotmail.com says... >> >> >> >> On Jul 20, 4:24 am, Lookout <mrLook...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> > On Mon, 19 Jul 2010 23:09:19 -0500, Liberal Hypocrite Detector >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > <grey_ghost471-newsgro...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> > >Lookout <mrLook...(a)yahoo.com> wrote in >> >> > >news:6s6946dv0hdovta6h17fsvppqbddlfdp07(a)4ax.com: >> >> > >> >> > >> On Mon, 19 Jul 2010 12:14:12 -0500, Liberal Hypocrite Detector >> >> > >><grey_ghost471-newsgro...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> > >>>Only if avoidance means joining the Texas Air National guard, >> >> > >>>learning to fly a Mach plus interceptor and then standing alerts. >> >> > >> >> > >> No. Only if it means getting in a unit that was already at 100% >> >> > >> capacity...which was ILLEGAL. And getting into a unit that flew >> >> > >> jets that were no longer used in Viet Nam SO HE COULDN'T GO. He >> >> > >> claimed he wanted to..then why join a unit that can't be deployed? >> >> > >> >> > >Um, no. >> >> > >> >> > >http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/history/q0185.shtml >> >> > >George W. Bush's military service began in 1968 when he enlisted in >> >> > >the Texas Air National Guard after graduating with a bachelor's >> >> > >degree in history from Yale University. The aircraft he was >> >> > >ultimately trained to fly was the F-102 Delta Dagger, popularly >> >> > >known as "the Deuce." The F-102 may have been old but was far from >> >> > >useless, and it continued to serve in large numbers with both Air >> >> > >Force and Air National Guard units well into the 1970s. Furthermore, >> >> > >the F-102 was deployed to Vietnam throughout most of the conflict, >> >> > >and the aircraft proved its value early by deterring North >> >> > >Vietnamese pilots from crossing the border to attack the South. >> >> > >Perhaps more importantly, the F-102 and its Air National Guard >> >> > >pilots performed a vital role in defending the continental United >> >> > >States from nuclear attack. >> >> > >> >> > >http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-102a-ops.ht >> >> > >m Four F-102s were sent from Clark AB, P. I., to South Vietnam in >> >> > >March 1962, after radars had detected low flying, unidentified >> >> > >aircraft along the Cambodian border. This started a series of >> >> > >rotations every 6 weeks by Navy EA-1F all weather fighters and >> >> > >USAF F-102s to Tan Son Nhut. The rotation ended in May 1963 due to >> >> > >base overcrowding. Nonetheless, from the summer of 1963 to mid 1964, >> >> > >Thirteenth Air Force conducted no-notice deployments of F-102s to >> >> > >South Vietnam and brief training flights to Tan Son Nhut and Da >> >> > >Nang. The small number of aircraft committed to SEA air defense >> >> > >before 1965 tripled by the end of 1966. At that time 12 F-102s stood >> >> > >alert in South Vietnam (6 at Bien Hoa and 6 at Da Nang) and another >> >> > >10 in Thailand (6 at Udorn and 4 at Don Muang). Little change >> >> > >occurred in 1967 and 1968, the Air Force keeping a minimum of 14 >> >> > >F-102s on 5 minute alert with the remainder of the force on 1 hour >> >> > >call. F-102 operations in SEA ended in December 1969 (The last >> >> > >F-102 squadron at Clark was inactivated. However, a few F-102s >> >> > >remained at the Royal Thai Air Base of Don Muang until the summer of >> >> > >1970.) with a remarkable safety record. In almost 10 years of >> >> > >flying air defense and a few combat air patrols for SAC B-52s, just >> >> > >15 F- 102s were lost. >> >> > >> >> > His unit was at 100% when he was allowed to join. That's been >> >> > documented repeatedly. >> >> Documented repeatedly by WHOM? >> > >> > Who cares if the unit was 100%.... >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> > There were NO NEW F-102 units be sent to Viet Nam WHEN HE JOINED. >> >> > Therefore HE COULD NOT GO and his daddy knew that. The only one >> >> > flying them were AD Air Force. >> >> > >> >> And there was some sort of guarantee that it would not change in >> >> the future? >> > >> > >> > Well Lookout's recruiter promised him lots of things... >> > >> >> Did that include a reach around? > > How do you think he got lookout to sign !? Like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5JHhaEsjqA
From: Jane Galt on 25 Jul 2010 23:33 "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly(a)my-deja.com> wrote : > > > Jane Galt wrote: > >> Dr. Alveda King, niece of Martin Luther King Jr., said on his program last >> night that she will be joining Glenn Beck on August 28th at the Lincoln >> Memorial for his "Restore The Honor" rally. > > It's not surprising that a relative would try to cash in on her > relationship with someone great in her family. You know the kind of > person -- gets an honorary doctorate only because she's a member of > the King family and then lets people address her as "Dr.", even though > she never earned a doctorate on her own. But Alveda King is above > that, right? > You're obviously not above smearing and lying about good people. -- - Jane Galt
From: RD Sandman on 26 Jul 2010 13:27 Tankfixer <paul.carrier(a)gmail.com> wrote in news:MPG.26b66ffb1a91538498972e(a)news.eternal-september.org: > In article <Xns9DBC54262ACBChopewell(a)216.196.97.130>, > rdsandman(a)comcast [remove].net says... >> >> Michael Ejercito <mejercit(a)hotmail.com> wrote in >> news:f9397b30-34f0-4b9c-b92a-fc4c2da48972(a)k8g2000prh.googlegroups.com: >> >> > On Jul 20, 9:25�am, Lookout <mrLook...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> On Tue, 20 Jul 2010 08:47:01 -0700 (PDT), Michael Ejercito >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> <mejer...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: >> >> >On Jul 20, 4:24�am, Lookout <mrLook...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> >> On Mon, 19 Jul 2010 23:09:19 -0500, Liberal Hypocrite Detector >> >> >> >Um, no. >> >> >> >> >> >http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/history/q0185.shtml >> >> >> >George W. Bush's military service began in 1968 when he >> >> >> >enlisted in t >> > he >> >> >> >Texas Air National Guard after graduating with a bachelor's >> >> >> >degree in history from Yale University. The aircraft he was >> >> >> >ultimately trained >> > to fly >> >> >> >was the F-102 Delta Dagger, popularly known as "the Deuce." >> >> >> >The F-102 >> > may >> >> >> >have been old but was far from useless, and it continued to >> >> >> >serve in >> > large >> >> >> >numbers with both Air Force and Air National Guard units well >> >> >> >into th >> > e >> >> >> >1970s. Furthermore, the F-102 was deployed to Vietnam >> >> >> >throughout most >> > of >> >> >> >the conflict, and the aircraft proved its value early by >> >> >> >deterring No >> > rth >> >> >> >Vietnamese pilots from crossing the border to attack the >> >> >> >South. Perha >> > ps >> >> >> >more importantly, the F-102 and its Air National Guard pilots >> >> >> >perform >> > ed a >> >> >> >vital role in defending the continental United States from >> >> >> >nuclear at >> > tack. >> >> >> >> >> >http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-102a- >> >> >> >ops .ht >> > m >> >> >> >Four F-102s were sent from Clark AB, P. I., to South Vietnam >> >> >> >in March >> > 1962, >> >> >> >after radars had detected low flying, unidentified aircraft >> >> >> >along the Cambodian border. This started a series of rotations >> >> >> >every 6 weeks by >> > Navy � >> >> >> >EA-1F all weather fighters and USAF F-102s to Tan Son Nhut. >> >> >> >The rotat >> > ion >> >> >> >ended in May 1963 due to base overcrowding. Nonetheless, from >> >> >> >the sum >> > mer of >> >> >> >1963 to mid 1964, Thirteenth Air Force conducted no-notice >> >> >> >deployment >> > s of >> >> >> >F-102s to South Vietnam and brief training flights to Tan Son >> >> >> >Nhut an >> > d Da >> >> >> >Nang. The small number of aircraft �committed to SEA air >> >> >> >defense be >> > fore >> >> >> >1965 tripled by the end of 1966. At that time 12 F-102s stood >> >> >> >alert i >> > n >> >> >> >South Vietnam (6 at Bien Hoa and 6 at Da Nang) and another 10 >> >> >> >in Thai >> > land >> >> >> >(6 at Udorn and 4 at Don Muang). Little change occurred in >> >> >> >1967 and 1 >> > 968, >> >> >> >the Air Force keeping a minimum of 14 F-102s on 5 minute alert >> >> >> >with t >> > he >> >> >> >remainder of the force on 1 hour call. F-102 operations �in >> >> >> >SEA end >> > ed in >> >> >> >December 1969 (The last F-102 squadron at Clark was >> >> >> >inactivated. Howe >> > ver, a >> >> >> >few F-102s remained at the Royal Thai Air Base of Don Muang >> >> >> >until the summer of 1970.) with a remarkable safety record. In >> >> >> >almost 10 years >> > of >> >> >> >flying air defense and a few combat air patrols for SAC B-52s, >> >> >> >just 1 >> > 5 F- >> >> >> >102s were lost. >> >> >> >> >> His unit was at 100% when he was allowed to join. That's been >> >> >> documented repeatedly. >> >> > � Documented repeatedly by WHOM? >> >> >> >> During the election. >> > The 1968 election? >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> There were NO NEW F-102 units be sent to Viet Nam WHEN HE >> >> >> JOINED. Therefore HE COULD NOT GO and his daddy knew that. The >> >> >> only one flying them were AD Air Force. >> >> >> >> > � And there was some sort of guarantee that it would not change >> >> > in >> >> >the future? >> >> >> >> Yes. It was OBSOLETE for combat in View Nam. >> > And when was it declared obsolete? >> >> Sometime in the late 60s and early 70s. It was very viable for what >> it got used for and that was never a design criteria. It was >> designed and built to be an interceptor, not a rocket platform. > > Compared to the aircraft that NV could field it was very capable So was an oxcart. -- Sleep well tonight, RD (The Sandman) The three stages of our economy....... Recession - You neighbor loses his job... Depression - You lose your job... Recovery - Obama loses his....
From: Gray Ghost on 26 Jul 2010 22:39
RD Sandman <rdsandman(a)comcast[remove].net> wrote in news:Xns9DC16A553659Chopewell(a)216.196.97.130: > Tankfixer <paul.carrier(a)gmail.com> wrote in > news:MPG.26b66ffb1a91538498972e(a)news.eternal-september.org: > >> In article <Xns9DBC54262ACBChopewell(a)216.196.97.130>, >> rdsandman(a)comcast [remove].net says... >>> >>> Michael Ejercito <mejercit(a)hotmail.com> wrote in >>> news:f9397b30-34f0-4b9c-b92a-fc4c2da48972(a)k8g2000prh.googlegroups.com: >>> >>> > On Jul 20, 9:25�am, Lookout <mrLook...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: >>> >> On Tue, 20 Jul 2010 08:47:01 -0700 (PDT), Michael Ejercito >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> <mejer...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: >>> >> >On Jul 20, 4:24�am, Lookout <mrLook...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: >>> >> >> On Mon, 19 Jul 2010 23:09:19 -0500, Liberal Hypocrite Detector >>> >> >> >Um, no. >>> >> >>> >> >> >http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/history/q0185.shtml >>> >> >> >George W. Bush's military service began in 1968 when he >>> >> >> >enlisted in t he Texas Air National Guard after graduating >>> >> >> >with a bachelor's degree in history from Yale University. The >>> >> >> >aircraft he was ultimately trained to fly was the F-102 Delta >>> >> >> >Dagger, popularly known as "the Deuce." The F-102 >>> > may >>> >> >> >have been old but was far from useless, and it continued to >>> >> >> >serve in large numbers with both Air Force and Air National >>> >> >> >Guard units well into th e 1970s. Furthermore, the F-102 was >>> >> >> >deployed to Vietnam throughout most >>> > of >>> >> >> >the conflict, and the aircraft proved its value early by >>> >> >> >deterring No rth Vietnamese pilots from crossing the border to >>> >> >> >attack the South. Perha ps >>> >> >> >more importantly, the F-102 and its Air National Guard pilots >>> >> >> >perform ed a vital role in defending the continental United >>> >> >> >States from nuclear at tack. >>> >> >>> >> >> >http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-102a- >>> >> >> >ops .ht m Four F-102s were sent from Clark AB, P. I., to South >>> >> >> >Vietnam in March >>> > 1962, >>> >> >> >after radars had detected low flying, unidentified aircraft >>> >> >> >along the Cambodian border. This started a series of rotations >>> >> >> >every 6 weeks by >>> > Navy � >>> >> >> >EA-1F all weather fighters and USAF F-102s to Tan Son Nhut. >>> >> >> >The rotat ion >>> >> >> >ended in May 1963 due to base overcrowding. Nonetheless, from >>> >> >> >the sum mer of 1963 to mid 1964, Thirteenth Air Force >>> >> >> >conducted no-notice deployment s of F-102s to South Vietnam >>> >> >> >and brief training flights to Tan Son Nhut an >>> > d Da >>> >> >> >Nang. The small number of aircraft �committed to SEA air >>> >> >> >defense be fore 1965 tripled by the end of 1966. At that time >>> >> >> >12 F-102s stood alert i n South Vietnam (6 at Bien Hoa and 6 >>> >> >> >at Da Nang) and another 10 in Thai land (6 at Udorn and 4 at >>> >> >> >Don Muang). Little change occurred in 1967 and 1 968, >>> >> >> >the Air Force keeping a minimum of 14 F-102s on 5 minute alert >>> >> >> >with t he remainder of the force on 1 hour call. F-102 >>> >> >> >operations �in SEA end >>> > ed in >>> >> >> >December 1969 (The last F-102 squadron at Clark was >>> >> >> >inactivated. Howe ver, a few F-102s remained at the Royal Thai >>> >> >> >Air Base of Don Muang until the summer of 1970.) with a >>> >> >> >remarkable safety record. In almost 10 years of flying air >>> >> >> >defense and a few combat air patrols for SAC B-52s, just 1 5 >>> >> >> >F- 102s were lost. >>> >> >>> >> >> His unit was at 100% when he was allowed to join. That's been >>> >> >> documented repeatedly. � Documented repeatedly by WHOM? >>> >> >>> >> During the election. >>> > The 1968 election? >>> > >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >> There were NO NEW F-102 units be sent to Viet Nam WHEN HE >>> >> >> JOINED. Therefore HE COULD NOT GO and his daddy knew that. The >>> >> >> only one flying them were AD Air Force. >>> >> >>> >> > � And there was some sort of guarantee that it would not change >>> >> > in the future? >>> >> >>> >> Yes. It was OBSOLETE for combat in View Nam. >>> > And when was it declared obsolete? >>> >>> Sometime in the late 60s and early 70s. It was very viable for what >>> it got used for and that was never a design criteria. It was >>> designed and built to be an interceptor, not a rocket platform. >> >> Compared to the aircraft that NV could field it was very capable > > > So was an oxcart. > That is really not fair. The Mig-21 in particular was a good aircraft, better than most of it's pilots. The biggest drawback, aside from the lack of a well developed pilot corps was soviet style tactics. For the most part they operated under GCI and were never really given the opportunity to operate independently. There is some evidence that a few pilots, possibly Russians, were not always directly under GCI and did much better then thier compatriots. The entire Soviet system was, in my opinion and the study I've made of it seriously flawed in that it tended to discourage the kind of independence of thought and action which is an outstanding characteristic of both US and Israeli pilots and aircrew. Soviet doctrine failed, not neccesarily the technology. -- "Laws are made for men of ordinary understanding and should, therefore, be construed by the ordinary rules of common sense. Their meaning is not to be sought for in metaphysical subtleties which may make anything mean everything or nothing at pleasure." �Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, 1823 |