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From: C. E. White on 9 Feb 2010 11:51

"Tegger" <invalid(a)invalid.inv> wrote in message
news:Xns9D19CF1C99E7tegger(a)208.90.168.18...
> Ed White <ce.white3(a)gmail.com> wrote in
> news:d4d847c6-08ff-4a4a-b6f7-cf3e3d9c09df(a)b10g2000vbh.googlegroups.com:
>
>> On Feb 5, 9:19 pm, Tegger <inva...(a)invalid.inv> wrote:
>>
>>> And, you Pennsylvania hillbilly, you STILL have refused
>>> (three times so far) to answer my question about the 28% of
>>> SUA incidents involving Fords. You're as bad as the environuts
>>> for avoiding difficult questions.
>>
>> I am the last person to defend Mike, but I have to wonder where
>> you
>> are getting that 28% number?
>
> I read it in the newspaper.
>
> But I've also just now found an online refernce:
> <http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/02/05/sudden.acceleration.fact.check/index.html>
>

Thanks for that. WIth that reference I was able to track down the
source of the article (surprise - Consumer Reports), and not
surprisingly it gives an incomplete picture of the facts.

The data was for just for complaints against 2008 model year vehicles
and included only complaints made before August 2009. In another post
I posted the total number of speed control complaints for Toyota
Camrys for the last 11 years. I am sure CR spent more time looking at
the data than I did, but I thought I'd look in the NHTSA databse
myself for all 2008 Toyota models and got the following results:

2008 Toyota Camry - 26 Vehicle Speed Control Complaints*
2008 Toyota 4Runner - 3 Vehicle Speed Control Complaints*
2008 Toyota Avalon - 10 Vehicle Speed Control Complaints*
2008 Toyota Camry Hybrid - 6 Vehicle Speed Control Complaints*
2008 Toyota Camry Solara - 3 Vehicle Speed Control Complaint (Camry
Solar + Solara combined)*
2008 Toyota Corolla- 8 Vehicle Speed Control Complaints*
2008 ToyotaFJ Cruiser - 1 Vehicle Speed Control Complaint*
2008 Toyota Highlander - 6 Vehicle Speed Control Complaints*
2008 Toyota Highlander Hybrid - 3 Vehicle Speed Control Complaints*
2008 Toyota Land Cruiser - 1 Vehicle Speed Control Complaints*
2008 Toyota Matrix - 0 Vehicle Speed Control Complaints*
2008 Toyota Prius - 35 Vehicle Speed Control Complaints*
2008 Toyota RAV4 - 14 Vehicle Speed Control Complaints*
2008 Scion TC - 1 Vehicle Speed Control Complaint*
2008 Scion XB - 1 Vehicle Speed Control Complaint*
2008 Scion XD - 0 Vehicle Speed Control Complaints*
2008 Toyota Sequoia - 1 Vehicle Speed Control Complaint*
2008 Toyota Sienna - 4 Vehicle Speed Control Complaints*
2008 Toyota Tacoma - 31 Vehicle Speed Control Complaints*
2008 Toyota Tundra - 11 Vehicle Speed Control Complaints*
2008 Toyota Yaris - 5 Vehicle Speed Control Complaints*
2008 Lexus ES350 - 9 Vehicle Speed Control Complaints*
2008 Lexus GS350 - 0 Vehicle Speed Control Complaints*
2008 Lexus GX470 - 0 Vehicle Speed Control Complaints*
2008 Lexus IS - 6 Vehicle Speed Control Complaints* (all IS models in
database)
2008 Lexus LS - 0 Vehicle Speed Control Complaints*
2008 Lexus LX - 0 Vehicle Speed Control Complaints*
2008 Lexus RX - 9 Vehicle Speed Control Complaints* (all RX models in
database)

* For some modles there were complaints about the operation of the
cruise control (it is a separate vehicle speed control categoty). I
did not include those complaints in the number of vehicle speed
control complaints. I did include vehicle speed control, vehicle speed
control: pedal, vehicle speed control: linkage, and vehicle speed
control: cable listings). My list is all complaints through this
morning. I don't have the time to sort out which are newer than last
August, but I am sure many are. It is typical for the number of
complaints to increase after stories appear in the press.
Interestingly when people were trashing Ford for a couple of recalls
(Explorer tires and cruise control switches) I pointed this phenomina
out and others claimed it was not an important factor.

OK, so when I total up the number of vehicle speed control complaints
against all 2008 Toyota products in the NHTSA database I come up with
194. Consumer reports only counted 52 of these (27%) in their
comparison. There was no explanation in the CR article as to how they
whittled the number down from 194 to 52, so it is difficult to make
any value judgements. I suppose part of the problem is that they only
counted complaints made before last August. Even if we agree this is
fair, it is is clear that picking 2008 as the year to make the
comparison was very favorable for Toyota. There were only 26 Vehicle
Speed Control complaints against 2008 Camrys in the NHTSA database.
There were 165 against 2007 Camrys in the same database. One has to
wonder if CR was once again favoring Toyota in one of their articles.

Just to be complete, I looked up the numebr of vehicle speed control
complaints against 2008 Ford models -

2008 Ford Crown Victoria - 2 Vehicle Speed Control Complaints*
2008 Ford E Series (all)- 1 Vehicle Speed Control Complaint*
2008 Ford Edge - 1 Vehicle Speed Control Complaint*
2008 Ford Escape - 7 Vehicle Speed Control Complaint*
2008 Ford Escape Hybrid - 0 Vehicle Speed Control Complaints*
2008 Ford Expedition - 1 Vehicle Speed Control Complaint*
2008 Ford Explorer - 1 Vehicle Speed Control Complaint*
2008 Ford Explorer SportTrac- 0 Vehicle Speed Control Complaints*
2008 Ford F Series (all) - 19 Vehicle Speed Control Complaints*
2008 Ford Focus - 0 Vehicle Speed Control Complaints*
2008 Ford Fusion - 4 Vehicle Speed Control Complaints*
2008 Ford Mustang - 1 Vehicle Speed Control Complaint*
2008 Ford Ranger- 0 Vehicle Speed Control Complaints*
2008 Ford Taurus (includes X) - 5 Vehicle Speed Control Complaints
2008 Lincoln Mark LT - 1 Vehicle Speed Control Complaint*
2008 Lincoln MKX - 0 Vehicle Speed Control Complaints*
2008 Lincoln MKZ - 1 Vehicle Speed Control Complaint*
2008 Lincoln Navigator - 0 Vehicle Speed Control Complaints*
2008 Lincoln Town Car - 0 Vehicle Speed Control Complaints*
2008 Mercury Grand Marquis - 4 Vehicle Speed Control Complaints*
2008 Mercury Mariner - 2 Vehicle Speed Control Complaints*
2008 Mercury Mariner Hybrid - 0 Vehicle Speed Control Complaints*
2008 Mercury Milan - 1 Vehicle Speed Control Complaint*
2008 Mercury Mountaineer - 0 Vehicle Speed Control Complaints*
2008 Mercury Sable - 1 Vehicle Speed Control Complaint*

As I did for Toyota, I included all vechicle speed control complaints
except for the ones identified as cruise control related. This was
actually an advantage to Toyota since they had many more compliants
related to the crusie control than Ford. The total number of vehcile
speed control complaints for all 2008 Ford models was 52. CR whittled
this down to 36, only a 30% reduction. How does this seem reasonable
when they whittled down the number of similar Toyota complaints to
52 - a 70% reduction? I've looked at the complaint summaries and there
is no way an honest person could come up with this disparity in
adjustmets to the complaints.

Let me summarize, the article you cited claimed that Toyta had 41% of
the unintended acceleration claims for one particualr model year -
2008. This model years was not the peak model year for complaints
against Toyota, in fact in the last ten it was among the lowest year
for complaints against Toyotas. The orignal article that was the
source of the data was in Consumer Reports. CR used the NHTSA database
to come up with a figure of 52 vehicle speed control complaints based
on only on complaints made before last August. So what you have is
carefully selected data design to make Toyota look better, but still
they look horrible.

So really, your attempt to deflect attention form Toyota have back
fired. I am now more convinced that CR is in Toyota's pocket. The CR
article was at best shoddy journalism, and at worst an attempt to at
least partially excuse Toyota by saying - "Yes, Toyota is bad, but
they are only twice as bad as Ford when we carefully select data to
make Toyota look as good as we could."

When will the press stop cuddling Toyota? No other company gets the
sort of free ride that Toyota gets.

Ed















there were 26 vehcile speed control complaints against just 2008
Toyota Camrys. The CR data only claimed 52 complaints against all 2008
Toyota Models. So I am not sure how CR decided which vehcile speed
control complaints were "unintended acceleration" complaints and which
were something else. And 2008 model Camry were not even close to the
worst Model/Year Toyotas in terms of generating vehicle speed control
complaints. There were 2007 Camrys. So what you have is a CR
interpertation of


>> I looked throught the NHTSA database
>> today and there are hundreds (thousands porbably) of reports of
>> problems with Toyotas related to throttle control (sticking pedals,
>> slow to return pedals, unintended accleration, etc). I did the same
>> thing for Ford, and while it is easy to find some complaints, the
>> number I saw are nowhere near the numbers reported for Toyotas.
>
>
>
> Remember that these are all /allegations/. Audi was almost driven
> out of business by allegations.
>
> Allegations are just that until proven, which none of these are.
>
>
>>
>> But even if Ford has a number of complaints detailing unintended
>> accleration (and honestly almost every manufacturer has some
>> complaints), how does that excuse Toyota?
>
>
>
> It doesn't. It DOES point out the hypooscrisy of dumping solely
> on Toyota when Ford is way up there too.

It seems to me that Toyota has a far worse problem based on a failure
per vehicle number than Ford and much much worse than GM or Chrysler.
Where were you when the press was dumping on Ford over Explorer
rollovers? Explorers actually had one of the best safety records among
four door mid-sized SUVs. Toyota 4Runners had one of the worst records
in that class. Yet the press constantly trashed Explorers and
rarely/never mentioned 4Runners (or Pathfinders or S10 Blazers - all
of which were much more prone to rollovers than Explorers).

>> You (and others) constantly
>> harp on Toyota's superior quality.
>
>
>
> No I don't. I harp on hypocrisy, political cunning, and
> blinkered vision.

Come on - you are one of Toyota's most ardent defenders.


From: Tegger on 12 Feb 2010 19:33
"C. E. White" <cewhite3(a)mindspring.com> wrote in
news:hks4bs$n0l$1(a)news.eternal-september.org:


>
> OK, so when I total up the number of vehicle speed control complaints
> against all 2008 Toyota products in the NHTSA database I come up with
> 194.



One hundred and ninety-four...



> As I did for Toyota, I included all vechicle speed control complaints
> except for the ones identified as cruise control related. This was
> actually an advantage to Toyota since they had many more compliants
> related to the crusie control than Ford. The total number of vehcile
> speed control complaints for all 2008 Ford models was 52.



Fifty-two...


OK.


Toyota and Ford both had about 16% of the auto market in 2008. That
equates to about 2.218 million vehicles each. I can't find Ford's
figures with heavy trucks removed, but I did find Toyota's:
<http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/08-december-sales.aspx>

Now, let's assume, for the sake of argument, that your parsing of the
data is more accurate than Consumer Report's effort, and that my
referenced 41%/28% split is erroneous. Let's also assume, again for the
sake of argument, that each and every one of the speed control
complaints for both manufacturers is due to some sort of malfunction
beyond the driver's control, and none are due to pedal misapplication.

So, over 2.218 million vehicles each, we have Toyota with 194 complaints
and Ford with 52. Not crashes or deaths, remember, just complaints to
the NHTSA.

As percentage of total 2008 production,
Toyota: 0.00874%.
Ford: 0.00234%.

At a 41/28 percentage split, Toyota would have 1.46 times more incidents
than Ford.
According to your numbers, Toyota actually has 3.74 times more incidents
than Ford.

But either way, I do believe my point is again made.

Is 0.00874% really a disaster? Is it an epidemic? Is it a sign of a
company out of control, selling deathtraps to the public, then covering
up for it? With 99.99126% of vehicles proceeding without incident?

Or is it just a media and activist jihad, a holy war against the Big
Guy? Is it a repeat of what, over the ages, US Steel, Standard Oil, IBM,
Microsoft, and Walmart have all had to endure, simply for the crime of
being very good at what they did, very big, and very successful?

--
Tegger

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