Summary of Toyotas Recalled for Accelerator Related Problems
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From: Tegger on 6 Feb 2010 14:01 "Jeff Strickland" <crwlrjeff(a)yahoo.com> wrote in news:hkke1n$gkv$1 @news.eternal-september.org: > > "Tegger" <invalid(a)invalid.inv> wrote in message > news:Xns9D178C71DDB64tegger(a)208.90.168.18... >> "Jeff Strickland" <crwlrjeff(a)yahoo.com> wrote in >> news:hkk9vn$utl$1(a)news.eternal-september.org: >> >>> >>> "dbu''" <nospam(a)nobama.com.invalid> wrote in message >>> news:SIudnayZ1-nATPHWnZ2dnUVZ_gBi4p2d(a)giganews.com... >>>> In article <4b6cb9e5$0$9300$ce5e7886(a)news-radius.ptd.net>, >>>> "Mike Hunter" <Mikehunt2(a)lycos,com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> It was a Lexus, in California, according to new reports >>>> >>>> Then it wasn't a Toyota. >>>> >>>> I know, but Chevy is GM. So Chevy has a recall and it's GM or is it >>>> the other way around. >>>> >>> >>> GM would recall a Chevy, Pontiac, Buick, Cadillac, etc. Toyota would >>> recall a Lexus. >>> >>> The crash in San Diego (El Cajon or Santee, really) was a Lexus, which >>> is a Toyota. They blamed the floor mats, but I respectfully disagree. >>> A cop should not be stymied by a floor mat. As a matter of fact, I'm >>> serious concerned that the cop was stymied at all, but that just >>> speaks to the serious nature of the problem. >>> >> >> >> >> You should read the NHTSA's own investigation report. >> > > I have. I also have a healthy disrespect for government reporting. To be > fair, I have a selective disrespect of government reporting too. > Then what's your guess about the cause? -- Tegger
From: Jeff Strickland on 6 Feb 2010 14:27 "Tegger" <invalid(a)invalid.inv> wrote in message news:Xns9D178EA1B240Ftegger(a)208.90.168.18... > "Jeff Strickland" <crwlrjeff(a)yahoo.com> wrote in news:hkke1n$gkv$1 > @news.eternal-september.org: > >> >> "Tegger" <invalid(a)invalid.inv> wrote in message >> news:Xns9D178C71DDB64tegger(a)208.90.168.18... >>> "Jeff Strickland" <crwlrjeff(a)yahoo.com> wrote in >>> news:hkk9vn$utl$1(a)news.eternal-september.org: >>> >>>> >>>> "dbu''" <nospam(a)nobama.com.invalid> wrote in message >>>> news:SIudnayZ1-nATPHWnZ2dnUVZ_gBi4p2d(a)giganews.com... >>>>> In article <4b6cb9e5$0$9300$ce5e7886(a)news-radius.ptd.net>, >>>>> "Mike Hunter" <Mikehunt2(a)lycos,com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> It was a Lexus, in California, according to new reports >>>>> >>>>> Then it wasn't a Toyota. >>>>> >>>>> I know, but Chevy is GM. So Chevy has a recall and it's GM or is it >>>>> the other way around. >>>>> >>>> >>>> GM would recall a Chevy, Pontiac, Buick, Cadillac, etc. Toyota would >>>> recall a Lexus. >>>> >>>> The crash in San Diego (El Cajon or Santee, really) was a Lexus, which >>>> is a Toyota. They blamed the floor mats, but I respectfully disagree. >>>> A cop should not be stymied by a floor mat. As a matter of fact, I'm >>>> serious concerned that the cop was stymied at all, but that just >>>> speaks to the serious nature of the problem. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> You should read the NHTSA's own investigation report. >>> >> >> I have. I also have a healthy disrespect for government reporting. To be >> fair, I have a selective disrespect of government reporting too. >> > > > Then what's your guess about the cause? > > I've stated it several times. The fly-by-wire system takes input from the Pedal Position Sensor (whatever the make-up of such a sensor might be) and converts it to an output to the Thottle Plate. This conversion is getting mucked up and the computer is telling the Throttle Plate to open, whether the gas pedal is giving the command or not. I'm inclined to speculate that there is a problem that is electronic in nature as opposed to a mechanical problem. If the mechanics of the gas pedal was the issue, test would have exposed it long ago, and my limited experience in prototype development says that the problems should have been identified long before they got to the street IF the problems were mechanical -- floor mats and binding return springs. I used to work in prototype testing and product development, and this (collision of parts) is precisely the kind of stuff that is exposed in the lab. The electronic problems don't usually expose themselves in a lab, especially the transient kinds of problems that affect the very small percentage of units that have affected the Toyota products. Now that the problems with customer units have been exposed, the lab should be able to isolate them, but nobody will say anything until the cause can be reliably repeated and then remedied.
From: Tegger on 6 Feb 2010 18:33 "Jeff Strickland" <crwlrjeff(a)yahoo.com> wrote in news:hkkfqs$nnn$1(a)news.eternal-september.org: > > "Tegger" <invalid(a)invalid.inv> wrote in message > news:Xns9D178EA1B240Ftegger(a)208.90.168.18... >> "Jeff Strickland" <crwlrjeff(a)yahoo.com> wrote in news:hkke1n$gkv$1 >> @news.eternal-september.org: >> >>> >>> "Tegger" <invalid(a)invalid.inv> wrote in message >>> news:Xns9D178C71DDB64tegger(a)208.90.168.18... >>>> >>>> You should read the NHTSA's own investigation report. >>>> >>> >>> I have. I also have a healthy disrespect for government reporting. >>> To be fair, I have a selective disrespect of government reporting >>> too. >>> >> >> >> Then what's your guess about the cause? >> >> > > I've stated it several times. > > The fly-by-wire system takes input from the Pedal Position Sensor > (whatever the make-up of such a sensor might be) and converts it to an > output to the Thottle Plate. This conversion is getting mucked up and > the computer is telling the Throttle Plate to open, whether the gas > pedal is giving the command or not. > > I'm inclined to speculate that there is a problem that is electronic > in nature as opposed to a mechanical problem. According to MDT Tech (if you remember him), the NHTSA closely regulates the design of the circuitry and software of throttle-by-wire for all automakers, even to the point of mandating that the software be immune from modification. The NHTSA-mandated throttle-by-wire system has a failsafe that operates somewhat like OBD-II, where it looks at signal rationality as well as signal activity itself. ANY malfunction, glitch or irrationality of ANY kind results in the throttle failing CLOSED. You're left with just enough power to idle a stricken car off the road. It is trivially easy to design a circuit that is OFF unless each and every parameter is within spec, and so has throttle-by-wire been made. The NHTSA crash investigation in question contains a number of incontrovertible facts: 1) the gas pedal showed no sign of any sort of mechanical problem; 2) the floor mats were wrong for the car; 3) the driver's mat was unsecured and had bunched up under the gas pedal. I'm quite convinced there are no electrical failures here. -- Tegger
From: Jeff Strickland on 6 Feb 2010 18:42 "Tegger" <invalid(a)invalid.inv> wrote in message news:Xns9D17BCD7DAC64tegger(a)208.90.168.18... > "Jeff Strickland" <crwlrjeff(a)yahoo.com> wrote in > news:hkkfqs$nnn$1(a)news.eternal-september.org: > >> >> "Tegger" <invalid(a)invalid.inv> wrote in message >> news:Xns9D178EA1B240Ftegger(a)208.90.168.18... >>> "Jeff Strickland" <crwlrjeff(a)yahoo.com> wrote in news:hkke1n$gkv$1 >>> @news.eternal-september.org: >>> >>>> >>>> "Tegger" <invalid(a)invalid.inv> wrote in message >>>> news:Xns9D178C71DDB64tegger(a)208.90.168.18... > >>>>> >>>>> You should read the NHTSA's own investigation report. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I have. I also have a healthy disrespect for government reporting. >>>> To be fair, I have a selective disrespect of government reporting >>>> too. >>>> >>> >>> >>> Then what's your guess about the cause? >>> >>> >> >> I've stated it several times. >> >> The fly-by-wire system takes input from the Pedal Position Sensor >> (whatever the make-up of such a sensor might be) and converts it to an >> output to the Thottle Plate. This conversion is getting mucked up and >> the computer is telling the Throttle Plate to open, whether the gas >> pedal is giving the command or not. >> >> I'm inclined to speculate that there is a problem that is electronic >> in nature as opposed to a mechanical problem. > > > > > According to MDT Tech (if you remember him), the NHTSA closely regulates > the design of the circuitry and software of throttle-by-wire for all > automakers, even to the point of mandating that the software be immune > from > modification. > > The NHTSA-mandated throttle-by-wire system has a failsafe that operates > somewhat like OBD-II, where it looks at signal rationality as well as > signal activity itself. ANY malfunction, glitch or irrationality of ANY > kind results in the throttle failing CLOSED. You're left with just enough > power to idle a stricken car off the road. > > It is trivially easy to design a circuit that is OFF unless each and every > parameter is within spec, and so has throttle-by-wire been made. > > The NHTSA crash investigation in question contains a number of > incontrovertible facts: > 1) the gas pedal showed no sign of any sort of mechanical problem; > 2) the floor mats were wrong for the car; > 3) the driver's mat was unsecured and had bunched up under the gas pedal. > > I'm quite convinced there are no electrical failures here. > This particular car was a dealer loaner that they provided customers when their own car was in for service. There was at least one previous customer that reported the car as taking off on it's own. I get the whole fail-safe thing, but my gut instinct is the fail-safe failed. I'm all-in on Toyota stuff, don't get me wrong. I like the company and the product mix, but no matter how much I like the stuff they put out, I can't shake the feeling that this is an electrical problem, not a mechanical one. I've read the reports that the mats were not the right ones. I'm not convinced this is the problem.
From: Tegger on 6 Feb 2010 18:50
"Jeff Strickland" <crwlrjeff(a)yahoo.com> wrote in news:hkkupu$3im$1(a)news.eternal-september.org: > There was at least one previous > customer that reported the car as taking off on it's own. Can you tell me where you got this from? I'd like to read it. -- Tegger |