Anyone heard of OBD III?
in [Toyota]
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From: Ray O on 3 Jan 2010 01:35 "Jeff Strickland" <crwlrjeff(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message news:hhp0ms$gf6$1(a)news.eternal-september.org... > > "Ray O" <rokigawa(a)NOSPAMtristarassociates.com> wrote in message > news:hhol1m$iv3$1(a)news.eternal-september.org... >> >> "Jeff Strickland" <crwlrjeff(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message >> news:hho8ic$q5e$1(a)news.eternal-september.org... >>> >>> "Ray O" <rokigawa(a)NOSPAMtristarassociates.com> wrote in message >>> news:hhmlto$o8o$1(a)news.eternal-september.org... >>>> >>>> "Jeff Strickland" <crwlrjeff(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message >>>> news:hhlhip$usl$1(a)news.eternal-september.org... >>>>> >>>>> "Ray O" <rokigawa(a)NOSPAMtristarassociates.com> wrote in message >>>>> news:hhlfnu$7lr$1(a)news.eternal-september.org... >>>>>> >>>>>> "Jeff Strickland" <crwlrjeff(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message >>>>>> news:hhjk4r$6iu$1(a)news.eternal-september.org... >>>>>>> >>>>>> <snipped> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Fault codes are already available to anybody and everybody, even >>>>>>>> people who don't know how to interpret them, through OBD I and II. >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There is diagnostic data that isn't available through OBD, and this >>>>>>> is a problem because it forces people to the dealership for services >>>>>>> that could be done by whomever people want to pay, or done by the >>>>>>> car owner himself. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I was just reading in the paper yesterday or the day before that >>>>>>> independent service centers do not have access to the same vehicle >>>>>>> data that the dealerships have, and the dealerships (automakers) are >>>>>>> refusing the notion that the customer has a right to it. The >>>>>>> automakers are saying that the data is proprietary, and the owners >>>>>>> are saying it ought not be. I side with the owners on this one. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If there is vehicle data that is stored which helps diagnose >>>>>>> problems, then that data should be stored in a uniform manner and be >>>>>>> made available to anybody that wants to see it. It's my car, it's my >>>>>>> data. If my data helps the dealership fix my car, then my data >>>>>>> should be available to me so I can fix my car. >>>>>>> >>>>>> As a former district service manager, I can assure you that there is >>>>>> no secret data in a car that is not available to anyone who is >>>>>> willing to invest in the proper diagnostic equipment and information. >>>>>> The data is not available to anyone who is willing to invest in the >>>>>> special equipment needed to retrieve it. >>>> >>>> The last sentence should have read "The data is **now** available..." >>>> >>>> The dilemma for independents is that if they want >>>>>> to work on 10 different brands, they have to buy the equipment for 10 >>>>>> different brands, while a Toyota dealer only has to buy equipment for >>>>>> Toyota, therefore automakers should give the info to the independents >>>>>> so they don't have to spend so much money to service so many brands. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> That argument drags us back to the days of OBD I, where the data was >>>>> available, but the format and location of the data port, and the >>>>> method of extraction, caused service costs associated with the >>>>> investment in the training and specialized equipment needed. The >>>>> entire purpose of OBD II was to make the data uniform so it could be >>>>> extracted. Now there is more data that is in unique and disparate >>>>> formats and locations that require specialized training and equipment >>>>> to get at it. Just like the data in OBD I. >>>>> >>>> >>>> The entire purpose of OBD II was to make it easier for emissions >>>> monitoring and testing agencies to monitor vehicle emissions and top >>>> monitor more causes and sources of emissions. A side benefit was that >>>> consumers could now purchase one scan tool to pull codes instead of >>>> sacfrificing a paper clip to jumper to test connector terminals, and >>>> the scan tools gave a readout of codes instead of making the person >>>> doing the diagnostics count flashes. I dunno - the paper clip in my >>>> tool box cost fractions of a penny, while my OBD II scan tool cost a >>>> thousand times more than the paper clip >>>> >>> >>> But the paper clip in your tool box doesn't work on all cars and trucks >>> sold. And the data strings that are produced are not all the same. And >>> the location of the port where you connect the paper clip is not located >>> in the same place. And ... >>> >> >> You are complaining in the wrong group. Prior to OBD II , for Toyotas, >> the paper clip worked in all vehicles with an on-board engine control >> computer, the data port was located in the same place as the OBD II ports >> are now located except for pre-Sienna vans (the data port was right next >> to the engine access hatch under the driver's seat, and if you could see >> and count, the data stream was in the same format for all Toyotas. IOW, >> Toyota's OBD has always had the uniformity you are wishing for. For >> other automakers, the only places I've noticed data ports was under the >> driver's side of the dash and next to the engine compartment fuse box. >> Have you found them in other places? >> > > > My Ford Bronco had the data port in the engine bay, near the power brake > booster. My Mazda hasn't got a data port that comes to mind. My BMW has > the data port in the engine bay on the right side shock tower. All have a > different connector. All take a different tool to extract the data -- > actually, I'm not sure how to get the data out of the Mazda, and the BMW > takes a special tool that costs hundreds of dollars and can only be used > on BMW, and the Ford can use a tool that only fits Ford, but one can buy > the tool for $35-ish of one can tolerate blinking lights and transferring > them to a code number for look up. > > You're getting off on a wild tangent. No, I'm addressing your points. You should complain in the Ford, Mazda, and BMW groups if it is that difficult to find their data ports or need special tools. Toyotas were all in the same place and you only need a paper clip to jump 2 terminals. > > All I'm saying is that there is data in latge model OBD II cars that is > useful in diagnosing problems in the drive train. We agree there. >This data takes unique equipment to extract, and the automakers are making >a claim that the data is theirs, not the consumers'. I get the impression that you are either not reading, not comprehending, or not believing my previous posts because I have said several times that alll the data in your car is already available, yet your posts continue to imply that it is not available. When you say that you want to be able to diagnose powertrain problems, if you are talking about data like transmission speed sensor signal, shift solenoid function, gear ranges, ATF temp, etc., that kind of stuff is already OBD II compliant and available to anyone with an OBD II code scanner. You don't have to take the word of a former Toyota district service manager who used to have ASE Master Technician and Toyota Master status or of a long time professional technician for this. Go to http://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/ and scroll down to the P0700 through P0899 diagnostic trouble code list. I disagree with that position. Any and all data > that the car can make is the property of the car owner not the car maker, > and as such, that data should be available to the car owner or his > agent -- who may not be the dealership service technician. > I have also said that all data that has a diagnostic value is already available to the car owner or his agent. What I forgot to mention previously in this thread is that it is possible to check the signal, voltage, resistance, or function (IOW, the actual raw "data" that you need for diagnosis) of just about every sensor, actuator, or sender in the vehicle with a volt/ohm meter, ammeter, or ocilloscope. As far as reading manufacturer-specific-non-powertrain codes, you need a higher end OBD II code reader that reads manufacturer-specific P, B, and C codes. You should be happy to know that the higher end OBD II code readers can read the specific codes of most, if not all, manufacturers. Yes, they are expensive, but they are good for most mass market makes and for someone who makes a living fixing cars, a worthwhile investment. In my experience, the data available through the OBD II system is more than enough to cover what a shade tree mechanic or independent shop should attempt. In the 14 years since the universal implementation of OBD II, I have never needed more data than what I got out of my cheapie OBD II code reader. To be honest, I've only needed to diagnose MIL's in 2 of the vehicles in our family in that time; the rest have been friends' vehicles. You do need manufacturer-specific equipment to flash or program some features in a car, but that is technically putting new data into your ECU, not getting data out, and IMO, only an idiot would want someone without specific training trying to flash ECU's in their car anyway. -- Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
From: aarcuda69062 on 3 Jan 2010 09:33
In article <hhp0ms$gf6$1(a)news.eternal-september.org>, "Jeff Strickland" <crwlrjeff(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > My Ford Bronco had the data port in the engine bay, near the power brake > booster. My Mazda hasn't got a data port that comes to mind. My BMW has the > data port in the engine bay on the right side shock tower. All have a > different connector. All take a different tool to extract the data -- > actually, I'm not sure how to get the data out of the Mazda, and the BMW > takes a special tool that costs hundreds of dollars and can only be used on > BMW, and the Ford can use a tool that only fits Ford, but one can buy the > tool for $35-ish of one can tolerate blinking lights and transferring them > to a code number for look up. There are single source tools that can/will access some or all of the data on any of your cars listed above providing that they actually are capable by design. i.e., yes to your 95 Bronco, no to a 90 Bronco. > You're getting off on a wild tangent. > > All I'm saying is that there is data in latge model OBD II cars that is > useful in diagnosing problems in the drive train. This data takes unique > equipment to extract, and the automakers are making a claim that the data is > theirs, The manufacturers are NOT claiming that the data that resides on the vehicle's control modules is theirs. The lay claim to the technology that they developed on their dime needed to extract that data. Just like usenet, the access is free, you will need to purchase your own PC and newsclient to retrieve it though. You are totally free to reverse engineer access to all of your cars if you so choose. > not the consumers'. I disagree with that position. Any and all data > that the car can make is the property of the car owner not the car maker, > and as such, that data should be available to the car owner or his agent -- > who may not be the dealership service technician. There is no lock on any DCL, you are totally free to connect to one any time you so choose. Build your own box or buy one ready made and have at it. Go to one of the two links I provided in the "best OBD2 scan tool" thread, subscribe and pay the fee, Toyota does not care whether you are a DIYer or a repair shop, they will gladly sell you the tool and software to run it, they offer an alternative if you choose to use your own platform (PC) at a much lesser cost. What could be more fair? |