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From: Vic Smith on 5 Apr 2010 21:57 On Tue, 6 Apr 2010 01:44:46 +0000 (UTC), Tegger <invalid(a)invalid.inv> wrote: >clare(a)snyder.on.ca wrote in >news:n23lr5p31p6utg7mn4nsp0t0adj8qvc8ck(a)4ax.com: > >> On Mon, 5 Apr 2010 20:50:00 -0400, "C. E. White" >> <cewhite3(a)mindspring.com> wrote: >> >>>On the other hand, modern cars >>>have reduced problems with blow-by (better control of manufacturing >>>tolerances), warm up faster and run hotter than cars from the middle >>>of the last century, >> >> No, in fact they run COLDER to reduce Oxides of Nitrogen emissions. >> You do NOT see many 195F thermostats any more (if any). > > > >"Colder" for NOx refers to combustion chamber temperatures that are kept well >below 2,500F, above which is where NOx are mostly formed. Thermostat ratings >have nothing to do with that. > >Modern engines DO warm up faster than engines of yesteryear. Emissions- >control and fuel-economy regulations see to that. > >I question the assertion that modern engines run "hotter", though. I suspect >it would be more correct to say that they reach (and stay at) operating- >temperature more efficiently than older engines. Seem old cars had 180 degree thermos pretty commonly. I don't pay much attention but it seems the last few I put in were 195. Still easy to get burned by hot oil in any case. --Vic
From: Tegger on 5 Apr 2010 22:02 Vic Smith <thismailautodeleted(a)comcast.net> wrote in news:e45lr55d8spqvrg569fgjgpklbd5au69j4(a)4ax.com: > > Seem old cars had 180 degree thermos pretty commonly. > I don't pay much attention but it seems the last few I put in were > 195. > Still easy to get burned by hot oil in any case. I see 78C (172F) thermostats in new Hondas and Toyotas. Keep in mind that this is an OPENING temperature. 172F thermostats are fully-open at 194F. -- Tegger
From: clare on 5 Apr 2010 22:08 On Tue, 6 Apr 2010 01:44:46 +0000 (UTC), Tegger <invalid(a)invalid.inv> wrote: >clare(a)snyder.on.ca wrote in >news:n23lr5p31p6utg7mn4nsp0t0adj8qvc8ck(a)4ax.com: > >> On Mon, 5 Apr 2010 20:50:00 -0400, "C. E. White" >> <cewhite3(a)mindspring.com> wrote: >> >>>On the other hand, modern cars >>>have reduced problems with blow-by (better control of manufacturing >>>tolerances), warm up faster and run hotter than cars from the middle >>>of the last century, >> >> No, in fact they run COLDER to reduce Oxides of Nitrogen emissions. >> You do NOT see many 195F thermostats any more (if any). > > > >"Colder" for NOx refers to combustion chamber temperatures that are kept well >below 2,500F, above which is where NOx are mostly formed. Thermostat ratings >have nothing to do with that. Not nothing. Try to get your 1996-2010 vehicle to pass NOX with a 195 thermostat installed. It MIGHT pass - but very good chance it won't. I've had to remove hot stats and put in the recommended cold stat on quite a few vehicles to get them to pass NOX. > >Modern engines DO warm up faster than engines of yesteryear. Emissions- >control and fuel-economy regulations see to that. They DO warm up faster. > >I question the assertion that modern engines run "hotter", though. I suspect >it would be more correct to say that they reach (and stay at) operating- >temperature more efficiently than older engines.
From: Grumpy AuContraire on 5 Apr 2010 23:39 Tegger wrote: > Vic Smith <thismailautodeleted(a)comcast.net> wrote in > news:e45lr55d8spqvrg569fgjgpklbd5au69j4(a)4ax.com: > > >> Seem old cars had 180 degree thermos pretty commonly. >> I don't pay much attention but it seems the last few I put in were >> 195. >> Still easy to get burned by hot oil in any case. > > > I see 78C (172F) thermostats in new Hondas and Toyotas. Keep in mind that > this is an OPENING temperature. 172F thermostats are fully-open at 194F. That's surprising as my ancient Hondas call for 180� thermostats where later models called for the 195� units. Probably the fancy (and expensive) electronics make that possible. JT
From: Bill Putney on 6 Apr 2010 05:57
Grumpy AuContraire wrote: > Tegger wrote: >> Vic Smith <thismailautodeleted(a)comcast.net> wrote in >> news:e45lr55d8spqvrg569fgjgpklbd5au69j4(a)4ax.com: >> >>> Seem old cars had 180 degree thermos pretty commonly. >>> I don't pay much attention but it seems the last few I put in were >>> 195. >>> Still easy to get burned by hot oil in any case. >> >> >> I see 78C (172F) thermostats in new Hondas and Toyotas. Keep in mind >> that this is an OPENING temperature. 172F thermostats are fully-open >> at 194F. > > > That's surprising as my ancient Hondas call for 180� thermostats where > later models called for the 195� units. > > Probably the fancy (and expensive) electronics make that possible. > > JT Does not the fan turn-on temp. more determine steady state temperature once the thermostat has opened? It may or may not be that the thermostat stays in continuously modulating mode (vs. full open) under most ambient air and load conditions during operation, but I suspect that the fans and their turn-on temp. as defined by the accuracy of the coolant temp. sensor and the PCM/ECM setpoint are the dominant factor. -- Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x') |