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From: jim beam on 4 Apr 2010 18:28 On 04/04/2010 03:09 PM, clare(a)snyder.on.ca wrote: > On Sun, 04 Apr 2010 09:46:12 -0700, jim beam<me(a)privacy.net> wrote: > > >>> >>> Yes, but in the vast areas of North america where much below freezing >>> and much over 80F are rare, there is VERY little advantage. - and just >>> using a slightly heavier gerade oil for the warm temperatures does >>> virtually the same thing. >> >> but it's still advantageous. you may not regard longer life, better >> fuel economy, lower wear as advantageous, but most people do. > > That is assuming you actually GET those advantages. if you're using them, how can you /not/ get them??? >> >> >>>> >>>> besides, most engine wear occurs during warm-up. if a synthetic can >>>> protect during this phase, and it can, then it's protecting the engine >>>> more than a conventional oil. >>> Except synthetic oils also tend (note, I said TEND - not necessarilly >>> always do) to drain down leaving less of a "static" oil film, they >>> NEED to get there quicker. >> >> sorry, that's incorrect. the adsorbed lubricant layer for a pao is more >> tenacious. that's one of the reasons it's a better lubricant. >> > But not all synthetic oils are PAO right. the majority sold here are in fact group III's. the next biggest seller is group IV, pao's. ester-based motor oils are a tiny minority. >> >>> >>> In real life, under "normal" conditions, there is almost un-measurable >>> difference in wear between standard dyno and normal synthetic lubs. >> >> wear product content of 2ppm vs 4ppm is small and "almost >> un-measurable", but it's 100% difference. > > Or a 50% reduction, to be accurate. increasing from 2ppm to 4ppm is 100%. to be accurate. -- nomina rutrum rutrum
From: jim beam on 4 Apr 2010 18:30 On 04/04/2010 03:27 PM, clare(a)snyder.on.ca wrote: > On Sun, 04 Apr 2010 14:46:17 -0400, Tony Harding > <tharding(a)newsguy.com> wrote: > >> On 04/04/10 12:01, Scott Dorsey wrote: >>> hls<hls(a)nospam.nix> wrote: >>>> >>>> So you are trying to say that the problematic Toyotas would not have >>>> sludged if they had been using synthetic oils? I doubt you have any >>>> proof at all for that statement. >>> >>> Well, if the problem was caused by low flow and high temperatures causing >>> oil breakdown, a synthetic oil with a higher breakdown temperature would >>> seem to help. >>> >>> I had a Chrysler Laser which was notorious for turbocharger problems. The >>> oil would bake in the turbocharger after the engine was turned off, and >>> clog it up with varnish. >> >> Sounds like a candidate for an electric fan to run after the engine was >> shut off. > Or just learn to drive the turbo properly - NEVER come in off a hard > run and shut the engine off. ALLWAYS give the turbo a "cooldown > period" - either gentle driving for several blocks or a couple minutes > at idle before shutdown. s.o.p. on semi's and large machinery. > The electric fan wouldn't help at all. An > electrically operated oil circulation pump and/or coolant circulation > pump would work. -- nomina rutrum rutrum
From: jim beam on 4 Apr 2010 18:43 On 04/04/2010 03:19 PM, clare(a)snyder.on.ca wrote: > On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 12:04:44 -0500, "hls"<hls(a)nospam.nix> wrote: > >> >> "jim beam"<me(a)privacy.net> wrote in message >> news:iMCdnYUMIavIXyXWnZ2dnUVZ_rKdnZ2d(a)speakeasy.net... >>> On 04/04/2010 09:35 AM, clare(a)snyder.on.ca wrote: >>>> On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 22:09:15 -0700, jim beam<me(a)privacy.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 04/03/2010 05:53 PM, clare(a)snyder.on.ca wrote: >>>>>> On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 09:33:16 -0700, jim beam<me(a)privacy.net> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 04/02/2010 09:32 AM, pj wrote: >>>>>>>> Bill Putney wrote: >>>>>>>>> pj wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Note -- neither of these engine types has a 'sludge' reputation so >>>>>>>>>> that wasn't a consideration. That might be a consideration for >>>>>>>>>> Toyota >>>>>>>>>> owners. YMMV >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have one of the Chrysler 2.7 engines in one of my 2 Concordes. >>>>>>>>> They >>>>>>>>> are known for sludging up and catastrophically failing at between >>>>>>>>> 60k >>>>>>>>> and 80k miles. Many people learned the hard way not to go by the >>>>>>>>> recommended 7500k change interval on those. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Of course it depends on the service that the vehicle sees too - >>>>>>>>> i.e., >>>>>>>>> lots of stop-and-go short-trip stuff vs. mostly highway use. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Mine has over 230k miles on it now and runs great because it is used >>>>>>>>> on my daily commute of 80 miles total each weekday and I change oil >>>>>>>>> and filter every 3000-3800 miles. Though people on the Chrysler >>>>>>>>> forums >>>>>>>>> will insist that that engine will not last unless you use synthetic, >>>>>>>>> I've disproven that by using non-synth Castrol and 8 oz. of Marvel >>>>>>>>> Mystery Oil at all times. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There are definitely some engines that can tolerate abuse (long oil >>>>>>>>> change intervals), but some are definitely intolerant of that. I >>>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>>> it has to do with the crankcase breathing design. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ALSO - I can't help but feel that a lot of instances of engines >>>>>>>>> failing due to sludging up is because more places (dealers included) >>>>>>>>> than you would think actually do not change the oil or filter when >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> customer pays for it - I have seen that twice personally - once on >>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>> elderly mother's car, and once on a Jeep that my daughter had bought >>>>>>>>> that had supposedly had oil and filter changed religiously every 3k >>>>>>>>> miles at a chain, and I proved that to be absolutely false. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yeah verily. One of the sludge issues was caused by dealers setting >>>>>>>> up a >>>>>>>> stall aimed at just oil changes, sucking oil out with a small tube >>>>>>>> inserted through the dip-stick sheath. That last pint never was >>>>>>>> drained. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Another issue not addressed in this thread is driving patterns. For a >>>>>>>> few years I was overseas and my wife was driving my Pontiac with a >>>>>>>> 454. >>>>>>>> All one or two mile trips. Engine never reached a proper operating >>>>>>>> temperature. Car suffered with constant crankcase dilution (with the >>>>>>>> oil >>>>>>>> level crawling UP the dipstick between changes. 3K wasn't often >>>>>>>> enough. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> so fix the damned thing! that's not a function of temperature, that's >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> function of excess fuel. >>>>>>> >>>>>> On a carbureted engine with a choke it IS a function of t >>>>>> emperature. If the engine (I think all 454 Pontiacs were >>>>>> carbureted, by the way) is never warmed up the choke never comes off >>>>>> and fuel dilution of the oil is a VERY REAL possibility. >>>>> >>>>> cringe. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> For cars with large engines and short trips, synthetic oil may be a >>>>>>>> mistake since synthetics tend to be hygroscopic. A better choice is a >>>>>>>> good petroleum based oil. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> that's a bullshit underinformed differentiation. all modern motor oils >>>>>>> are detergent. it's the detergent that's hygroscopic, so you can't >>>>>>> avoid it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> besides, synthetics flow better when cold, thus they are a better >>>>>>> choice, not worse. >>>>>> Actually, synthetic oils, in general, DO tend to be more >>>>>> hygroscopic, >>>>>> and provide less corrosion protection (marginally) >>>>>> >>>>>> As for the synthetic flowing better when cold - most definitely - but >>>>>> is that an advantage in Miami or SanDiego? >>>>>> >>>>>> It is only an advantage if you NEED that cold flow advantage. >>>>>> >>>>>> In Miami or San Diago the fact that it thins less with heat and is >>>>>> generally more resistant to oxidation is more important. >>>>> >>>>> so it's still advantageous! >>>> >>>> Yes, but in the vast areas of North america where much below freezing >>>> and much over 80F are rare, there is VERY little advantage. - and just >>>> using a slightly heavier gerade oil for the warm temperatures does >>>> virtually the same thing. >>> >>> but it's still advantageous. you may not regard longer life, better fuel >>> economy, lower wear as advantageous, but most people do. >>> >>> >>>>> >>>>> besides, most engine wear occurs during warm-up. if a synthetic can >>>>> protect during this phase, and it can, then it's protecting the engine >>>>> more than a conventional oil. >>>> Except synthetic oils also tend (note, I said TEND - not necessarilly >>>> always do) to drain down leaving less of a "static" oil film, they >>>> NEED to get there quicker. >>> >>> sorry, that's incorrect. the adsorbed lubricant layer for a pao is more >>> tenacious. that's one of the reasons it's a better lubricant. >>> >>> >>>> >>>> In real life, under "normal" conditions, there is almost un-measurable >>>> difference in wear between standard dyno and normal synthetic lubs. >>> >>> wear product content of 2ppm vs 4ppm is small and "almost un-measurable", >>> but it's 100% difference. >>> >> >> As it approaches the limits of measurability, 100% difference may not be >> mathematically significant. > In fact, 500% difference may be totally inconsequential. yeah. my civic with 20k mile oil change intervals is 500% broken. -- nomina rutrum rutrum
From: jim on 4 Apr 2010 20:27 Bob Jones wrote: > > do oil analysis. then you won't need to "follow". > > > > > > "honda have indeed done plenty of research and carefully written it into > your owners manual" > > If that's the case, there should be no need to do your own analysis. That is > of course unless you think your research is more thorough and bullet-proof > than Honda's. In case you haven't noticed. Mr. Bean is simply promoting recreational oil an analysis.
From: jim on 4 Apr 2010 20:31
Bob Jones wrote: > > based on oil analysis, i have this: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024(a)N00/4291579733/ > > > > Send it to Honda. May be they will rewrite the manual based on your > findings. Maybe the scored cam lobe in that picture will really impress Honda. |