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From: jim beam on 5 Apr 2010 11:19 On 04/05/2010 07:59 AM, jim wrote: > > > jim beam wrote: >> >> On 04/05/2010 05:53 AM, jim wrote: >>> >>> >>> jim beam wrote: >>>> >>>> On 04/04/2010 05:31 PM, jim wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Bob Jones wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>> based on oil analysis, i have this: >>>>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024(a)N00/4291579733/ >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Send it to Honda. May be they will rewrite the manual based on your >>>>>> findings. >>>>> >>>>> Maybe the scored cam lobe in that picture will really impress Honda. >>>> >>>> wow, someone actually noticed!!! 10 points. >>>> >>>> that cam lobe got marked when i did the head gasket in a hurry and >>>> didn't clean up - it was grit during reassembly and it's been that way >>>> for 51k miles now. >>> >>> >>> That is not fact it is simply the story you cooked up. >> >> sorry buddy, is is fact - i personally did the work that caused that >> marking, witnessed the condition of the cam before the work, witnessed >> the grit that was stuck on the cam lobes by oil film, and the condition >> immediately after start-up - which is just like you see now. > > > So? eh? can't you just admit the facts? [rhetorical] > > >> i >> assembled the motor in spite of the fact that it was going to be damaged >> by the grit because i was in a hurry and was thinking i'd get rid of >> this motor anyway. all it had to do was last one weekend. > > So what? > I mean, it makes you look like an idiot, but other than that it doesn't > contradict what I said. yes it does contradict what you said. you were supposing this was typical lube failure and wear. it's not. > >> >> whoops, does that expose your denial and ignorance? [rhetorical] >> >>> Regardless of >>> what may or may not have happened to your particular engine, it is not >>> uncommon to see this sort of engine damage happen to someone who >>> changes oil at 10000 miles and experiences a head gasket leak. >> >> more bullshit. cam lobes do wear and score, but you can't see this cam >> up close like i can, and the fine surface detail is completely different >> from simple wear and lubrication failure. > > In your world everything is simple - simple to the point of being > ridiculous. yeah, right - something that contradicts your bullshit supposition and ignorance is ridiculous... > > > >> >>> >>> Basically what happens is the sudden introduction of a small amount of >>> antifreeze into the oil will overwhelm the additives in the oil that are >>> designed to hold small particles of dirt in suspension. When these tiny >>> particles that usually do no harm are no longer capable of being held in >>> suspension, they will agglomerate into larger particles. That is, the >>> tiny particles will be attracted to each other and form into larger >>> masses. The damage those larger particles (before they reach the oil >>> filter) can do looks exactly like the score marks on your cam. >> >> bullshit. the reality is that if you have antifreeze in the coolant, >> [which mine never had btw, quite apart from the fact that the cam was >> not scored before i gritted it] you interrupt the oil film continuity >> and thus the hydrodynamic separation. > > Clean and fresh oil will absorb more antifreeze without causing damage > than dirty oil will. eh? are you trying to deny your mistake in assuming the wrong wear mechanism??? > >> particularly on cams at low >> speeds. but the surface features of such damage are that of scuffing >> and surface tearing - classic lube failure. mine is that of hard >> particle abrasion - very obvious difference. i'd invite you over to >> inspect personally, but i don't think your objective is that of discovery > > As I said whether or not your story about that particular engine and > that particular cam is factual is quite irrelevant. it absolutely is relevant. you presumed an entirely different mechanism than reality. just like your "particle agglomeration" bullshit. > That picture shows > exactly what damage from mixing a small amount of antifreeze with dirty > engine oil can look like. no it doesn't. and to say it does is absolutely ridiculous when you're working from an out-of-focus photo. it's even more ridiculous when you've been told the history of how it arose! > The particles of dirt that form in the oil can > cause scratch marks that look just exactly like that. Won't happen if > the oil is clean. bullshit. hard particles don't make it past the filter [ignoring of course that your "antifreeze agglomeration" doesn't exist]. water particles however interrupt the oil film and thus the hydrodynamic layer and allow direct metal-to-metal contact. real freakin' simple. > > >> >> you really have to learn not to bullshit about stuff you don't know. or >> not to deny reality when it's presented to you with history and photo >> evidence. > > You seem to be of the impression that nobody has noticed all the lies > that you have been caught telling. You seem to be laboring under the > impression that you are like the Pope and just because you say it there > will be others who will automatically accept it is true. wow dude, you really have a reality/ignorance problem. and it's sad to see an individual that can't tell the difference between fact and bullshit so pathetically cling to their mistakes, fabrications and delusions. > > >> >>> >>> >>> >>>> as you know if you have experience of this stuff, >>>> for that surface with those same marks to persist this long, without >>>> being scuffed off as normally happens, is a truly extraordinary >>>> testament to a superior lubricant. > > A scratched cam lobe is testimony to superior lubrication in a world > where the flying pigs and pink elephants have taken over. idiot. the fact that hard particle scratching /has not been worn off/ is testimony. but you're too ignorant of the facts and too closed-minded to reality to understand that. -- nomina rutrum rutrum
From: Michael on 5 Apr 2010 11:59 On Apr 3, 10:08 am, jim beam <m...(a)privacy.net> wrote: > On 04/01/2010 03:32 PM, Michael wrote: > > > > > On Apr 1, 3:06 pm, n...(a)wt.net wrote: > >> On Apr 1, 1:56 pm, Michael<mrdarr...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > >>> On Mar 29, 5:41 pm, jim beam<m...(a)privacy.net> wrote: > > >>>>http://www.dtsc.ca.gov/TechnologyDevelopment/OPPTD_FLY_High-Efficienc.... > > >>>> shock, horror, they used oil analysis to arrive at these recommendations! > > >>>> -- > >>>> nomina rutrum rutrum > > >>> Interesting point: "The HE filters used in this study claimed > >>> filtration of particles to 1-2 [microns], much better than standard > >>> filters of 30-50 [microns]. Using standard filters is one reason that > >>> motor oil needs to be changed; it gets dirty with small particles > >>> which results in engine wear. In this regard, standard filters have > >>> not improved over the years compared to significant improvements in > >>> motor oil quality. The oil change interval set in warranties is a > >>> result of standard filters being the limiting factor, not the motor > >>> oil quality. Hence, higher quality filters will help to extend motor > >>> oil life to its full potential." > > >> The smaller the particle the filter traps, the quicker it is going to > >> clog up. > >> Also, until you get to a point of saturation, the size of the > >> particles missed > >> by a "standard" filter are not large enough to do much engine wear. > >> I'm fairly anal about my vehicle, but I don't use filters that trap > >> very fine > >> particles. I use regular old standard filters. They are less prone to > >> being > >> clogged. And if that happens the bypass kicks in and you have no > >> filtering at all. > > >>> This raises the question: would it be safe to keep engine oil for > >>> 10,000 miles if you replace JUST the oil filter every 5,000 miles? > > >> It would depend on the service. If it's all highway miles, maybe.. > >> If not, pretty risky.. :( > > >>> Is an HE filter necessary? Oil analysis comparisons of the HE Fram X2 > >>> filter vs. a normal CarQuest filter would have been nice. > > >> I think it's a waste of money, and also not the greatest idea as I > >> have already touched on. > > >>> Maybe I can do an experiment with my '96 Camry (176k miles). For my > >>> wife's car, the 5,000 mile oil change will remain... > > >> If your Camry has 176k miles on it, you are probably doing something > >> right. Why change? :/ > > >> Myself, I use regular standard filters, half decent oil, "castrol > >> syntec blend", > >> and I change it every 5k miles like the manual and the blinky light > >> on > >> the dashboard says. I'm not a fan of "extended oil change skeds". > >> The purpose of changing the oil and filter is to remove the dirt, > >> acids, > >> moisture, and whatever else, and to replenish the additives in the > >> oil. > >> I'm not going much past 5k in any of my vehicles, and I don't care > >> what anyone thinks about it. My older trucks actually get dirtier > >> after 5k miles than my newer Corolla. It's so clean burning it is > >> really > >> not that bad after 5k.. But I change it anyway. Cheap insurance. > >> I don't use synth blend in the trucks though.. Just regular dino oil.. > >> I only use the synth blend in the Corolla as extra insurance against > >> the dreaded gelling problem. Again, the extra cost is cheap insurance > >> the way I see it. > > > Ok, thanks for the info. Good points all around. Maybe the car can > > go longer on multiple filters, but 5k miles is long enough. My use > > might even qualify as "severe" come to think of it... mixed city/ > > highway driving. > > > Was using Castrol regular 10W-30, thinking of putting in regular Mobil > > 5W-30 for better fuel economy next change due in ~900 miles. > > > Thanks, > > > Michael > > ok, if mobil will go 20k miles per actual usage:http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024(a)N00/4291579733/ > > will you still change it at 5k? > > -- > nomina rutrum rutrum I was thinking of extending the interval, but when I looked for an oil change interval in my manual I couldn't find one (!?) Haynes specifies a 3000 mile interval for both the '96 and '99. Funny how Mobil doesn't say extended intervals are ok... I guess I'll just replace oil and filter at 5k...
From: jim on 5 Apr 2010 11:59 dr_jeff wrote: > > How does antifreeze interrupt the oil film? Does it act like a soap, > dissolving it? Actually the detergents and dispersants "act like soap" and have the effect of keeping all sorts of stuff in solution in the oil - including antifreeze. This works as long as the additives aren't overwhelmed with too much "stuff". Acts like soap means its similar but a bit different. In the case of washing your hands the solvent is the water. Oil is a different type of solvent, different soap, but the same general idea. >I imagine alcohol or hand sanitizer (which 60% ethanol) > does the same thing. Just like soap disrupts the oil film or whatever on > my hands when I wash after checking the oil? > > Jeff > > > particularly on cams at low > > speeds. but the surface features of such damage are that of scuffing > > and surface tearing - classic lube failure. mine is that of hard > > particle abrasion - very obvious difference. i'd invite you over to > > inspect personally, but i don't think your objective is that of discovery > > > > > >> > >> -jim > > > > you really have to learn not to bullshit about stuff you don't know. or > > not to deny reality when it's presented to you with history and photo > > evidence. > > > > > >> > >> > >> > >>> as you know if you have experience of this stuff, > >>> for that surface with those same marks to persist this long, without > >>> being scuffed off as normally happens, is a truly extraordinary > >>> testament to a superior lubricant. > >>> > >>> google this group for a longer write-up i posted a while ago. > >>> > >>> -- > >>> nomina rutrum rutrum > > > >
From: jim beam on 5 Apr 2010 12:08 On 04/05/2010 08:59 AM, Michael wrote: > On Apr 3, 10:08�am, jim beam<m...(a)privacy.net> wrote: >> On 04/01/2010 03:32 PM, Michael wrote: >> >> >> >>> On Apr 1, 3:06 pm, n...(a)wt.net wrote: >>>> On Apr 1, 1:56 pm, Michael<mrdarr...(a)gmail.com> �wrote: >> >>>>> On Mar 29, 5:41 pm, jim beam<m...(a)privacy.net> �wrote: >> >>>>>> http://www.dtsc.ca.gov/TechnologyDevelopment/OPPTD_FLY_High-Efficienc... >> >>>>>> shock, horror, they used oil analysis to arrive at these recommendations! >> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> nomina rutrum rutrum >> >>>>> Interesting point: "The HE filters used in this study claimed >>>>> filtration of particles to 1-2 [microns], much better than standard >>>>> filters of 30-50 [microns]. Using standard filters is one reason that >>>>> motor oil needs to be changed; it gets dirty with small particles >>>>> which results in engine wear. In this regard, standard filters have >>>>> not improved over the years compared to significant improvements in >>>>> motor oil quality. The oil change interval set in warranties is a >>>>> result of standard filters being the limiting factor, not the motor >>>>> oil quality. Hence, higher quality filters will help to extend motor >>>>> oil life to its full potential." >> >>>> The smaller the particle the filter traps, the quicker it is going to >>>> clog up. >>>> Also, until you get to a point of saturation, the size of the >>>> particles missed >>>> by a "standard" filter are not large enough to do much engine wear. >>>> I'm fairly anal about my vehicle, but I don't use filters that trap >>>> very fine >>>> particles. I use regular old standard filters. They are less prone to >>>> being >>>> clogged. And if that happens the bypass kicks in and you have no >>>> filtering at all. >> >>>>> This raises the question: would it be safe to keep engine oil for >>>>> 10,000 miles if you replace JUST the oil filter every 5,000 miles? >> >>>> It would depend on the service. If it's all highway miles, maybe.. >>>> If not, pretty risky.. :( >> >>>>> Is an HE filter necessary? Oil analysis comparisons of the HE Fram X2 >>>>> filter vs. a normal CarQuest filter would have been nice. >> >>>> I think it's a waste of money, and also not the greatest idea as I >>>> have already touched on. >> >>>>> Maybe I can do an experiment with my '96 Camry (176k miles). For my >>>>> wife's car, the 5,000 mile oil change will remain... >> >>>> If your Camry has 176k miles on it, you are probably doing something >>>> right. Why change? :/ >> >>>> Myself, I use regular standard filters, half decent oil, "castrol >>>> syntec blend", >>>> and I change it every 5k miles like the manual and the blinky light >>>> on >>>> the dashboard says. I'm not a fan of "extended oil change skeds". >>>> The purpose of changing the oil and filter is to remove the dirt, >>>> acids, >>>> moisture, and whatever else, and to replenish the additives in the >>>> oil. >>>> I'm not going much past 5k in any of my vehicles, and I don't care >>>> what anyone thinks about it. My older trucks actually get dirtier >>>> after 5k miles than my newer Corolla. It's so clean burning it is >>>> really >>>> not that bad after 5k.. But I change it anyway. Cheap insurance. >>>> I don't use synth blend in the trucks though.. Just regular dino oil.. >>>> I only use the synth blend in the Corolla as extra insurance against >>>> the dreaded gelling problem. Again, the extra cost is cheap insurance >>>> the way I see it. >> >>> Ok, thanks for the info. �Good points all around. �Maybe the car can >>> go longer on multiple filters, but 5k miles is long enough. �My use >>> might even qualify as "severe" come to think of it... mixed city/ >>> highway driving. >> >>> Was using Castrol regular 10W-30, thinking of putting in regular Mobil >>> 5W-30 for better fuel economy next change due in ~900 miles. >> >>> Thanks, >> >>> Michael >> >> ok, if mobil will go 20k miles per actual usage:http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024(a)N00/4291579733/ >> >> will you still change it at 5k? >> >> -- >> nomina rutrum rutrum > > > > I was thinking of extending the interval, but when I looked for an oil > change interval in my manual I couldn't find one (!?) Haynes > specifies a 3000 mile interval for both the '96 and '99. > > Funny how Mobil doesn't say extended intervals are ok... yes they do - they specifically give mileages for the following: clean 5000 clean 7500 m1 extended performance - 15000. > > I guess I'll just replace oil and filter at 5k... -- nomina rutrum rutrum
From: dr_jeff on 5 Apr 2010 12:13
jim wrote: > > dr_jeff wrote: > >> How does antifreeze interrupt the oil film? Does it act like a soap, >> dissolving it? > > Actually the detergents and dispersants "act like soap" and have the > effect of keeping all sorts of stuff in solution in the oil - including > antifreeze. This works as long as the additives aren't overwhelmed with > too much "stuff". > Acts like soap means its similar but a bit different. In the case of > washing your hands the solvent is the water. Oil is a different type of > solvent, different soap, but the same general idea. Apparently, glycol is even nastier for oil than I suspected: http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/193/oil-glycol. It chemically reacts with different things, doesn't dissolve well in oil and makes acid. Jeff >> I imagine alcohol or hand sanitizer (which 60% ethanol) >> does the same thing. Just like soap disrupts the oil film or whatever on >> my hands when I wash after checking the oil? > > > >> Jeff >> >>> particularly on cams at low >>> speeds. but the surface features of such damage are that of scuffing >>> and surface tearing - classic lube failure. mine is that of hard >>> particle abrasion - very obvious difference. i'd invite you over to >>> inspect personally, but i don't think your objective is that of discovery >>> >>> >>>> -jim >>> you really have to learn not to bullshit about stuff you don't know. or >>> not to deny reality when it's presented to you with history and photo >>> evidence. >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> as you know if you have experience of this stuff, >>>>> for that surface with those same marks to persist this long, without >>>>> being scuffed off as normally happens, is a truly extraordinary >>>>> testament to a superior lubricant. >>>>> >>>>> google this group for a longer write-up i posted a while ago. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> nomina rutrum rutrum >>> |