Who was it who mentioned Fram oil filters and dropping oil pressure?
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From: N8N on 10 Dec 2009 11:23 On Dec 10, 11:11 am, jim <".sjedgingN0sp"@m...(a)mwt.net> wrote: > N8N wrote: > > > That he's absolutely correct? > > About what? > > > > > I can't say that I've read every post in this thread, but I *can* say > > that the post to which you're responding is factual. > > Who said it wasn't. His interpretation of the facts are what has been > questioned. Not by me. > > Most full flow spin-on type oil filters are in fact arranged so that > > the oil flows in around the perimeter and out the center hole. > > All of them are as far as I know. > > > Therefore even if there is some kind of check valve in the standpipe, > > there really ought to be one on the inlet as well. > > Why because that supposition supports your fictitious and superstitious > beliefs? Go easy on the insults there, buddy, especially when it's your credibility that is razor thin. > > If no air can be drawn into the filter from the outlet side, then no air can > get into the filter or any of the plumbing from the stand pipe to oil pick up in > the sump. No air anywhere in the system from filter to sump means no oil > pressure problem that you guys were having. The symptoms you describe are either > due to air in the system where there isn't supposed to be air or a blockage in > the system such as the anti-syphon valve in the engine sticking. That was a > problem that Chrysler reported happened in some engines. There are at least a > half dozen different ways that air could be getting in the system. For instance, > there are a bunch of gaskets between the oil filter and sump that could leak and > allow air into the system. And some of the others ways have already been > discussed. Or if the column of oil is high enough, air bubbles could even come up through the oil pump - what I suspect was actually happening. Assuming that there is even a valve in the engine. > > > This is obviously > > provided as a part of the filter. And has been pointed out to you > > several times before, it's well known that if you have a slant six > > that rod-knocks on startup and keeps the oil pressure light on for an > > unreasonably long time after a cold start, this is almost always > > rectified by replacing the Fram filter with a Wix filter. > > Bah humbug. And I suppose you believe in Santa Clause? I don't know who or what "Santa Clause" is unless you're referring to the Tim Allen movie. > > > So *even > > if* whatever valve you say may or may not be included in the standpipe > > is actually present, and *even if* on every slant six I've had, that > > valve was defective for some reason, there *still* is an ADBV included > > in the aftermarket oil filters available for that engine - and the > > ones in Frams don't work, and the ones in Wix filters *do.* > > That statement is false. Prove it. > > (note: > > > I've never personally removed the standpipe on a slant six, and I > > haven't owned/driven/been near one for something like ten years now, > > so I can't say whether that part of your post is factual or not.) > > There's a perfectly good reason for this; Wix filters use a silicone > > ADBV while Frams usually have nitrile ones, > > That may be a fact but you have no evidence it is relevant to your claims.. All > these filters are ISO tested including the ADBV. So why don't they work? > Where is the evidence from > those test that the material makes any difference? It's common knowledge that nitrile gets hard in service much sooner than silicone. That may or may not show up in the testing procedure, but it sure shows up out in the real world. You know, where people actually drive their cars. > Someone who chooses to ignore > the test evidence and instead rely on idiots who have only eyeballed the guts of > a filter is superstitious IMO. Someone who parrots "meets manufacturers specifications" without actually showing that a product does so and ignores real world results is a fuckwitted idiot. > > > above and beyond the > > construction issues with Frams that make it more difficult for even a > > soft, pliable ADBV to make a perfect seal against its mating surface. > > Even when it was -32F the rubber in the Fram filters did not fail. Mine did. > I know they > don't fail on engines that are working as designed. You "know" this? How? > I know others had the same > experience as I had. That means I have believable evidence 1000's of these > filters were known to never fail a single time. You want me to believe that your > experience with a couple filters where you think they failed is going to be more > convincing then my experience. It is just not very likely that you got all the > bad filters and I others I know got only good ones. A person would have to be > superstitious to believe that. A person would have to be "superstitious" to believe that there is absolutely nothing to a whole mess of reports of failures just because he himself has never experienced one. I've never blown a rod out the side of a block, either, and I don't need to to know that that is one possible result of running without oil. > > > Before you accuse me yet again of driving "defective" machinery, the > > two cars on which I've observed this personally both had engines in > > excellent mechanical condition; > > No you didn't. You had an oil pressure problem and a rod knock which you said > persisted even with the WIX (only not as bad). I most certainly did *not* say that. > You described the problem > clearly enough. It is your interpretation of the cause that is lacking. Riiiiiiight. > > >one was a reasonably fresh reman > > engine, and the other was a little old lady car with 80K original > > miles. Years later I had the head off the little old lady car (due to > > the owner of said car going too long between valve adjustments) and > > found the bores to still be in good shape, with little sludge/residue > > evident on the top side of the head. > > > Face it, you're BSing, and everyone's calling you on it. Just give > > No body has called me on anything. You have superstitious beliefs about what you > think is going on in places inside the engine you can't see. These engines when > working properly do not have low oil pressure problem you say they are prone > to. I never said that they were prone to low oil pressure. I said that when used with inferior oil filters with faulty ADBVs that they would have a *no* oil pressure condition on a cold start. 100% factual statement, and true for *any* engine with an upside-down filter and no ADBV built into the filter mount. > You even admitted the WIX filter didn't completely fix the problem but just > improved the symptoms. Nope. It fixed the problem. >I don't doubt that, but that isn't evidence of a bad > filter it is evidence of a problem with the engine that was misdiagnosed. I fail to see how completely rectifying the problem implies misdiagnosis. nate
From: C. E. White on 10 Dec 2009 11:21 "N8N" <njnagel(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message news:21771bbe-c334-4a06-b812-62ab79fb16e6(a)z41g2000yqz.googlegroups.com... > There's a perfectly good reason for this; Wix filters use a silicone > ADBV while Frams usually have nitrile ones, above and beyond the > construction issues with Frams that make it more difficult for even > a > soft, pliable ADBV to make a perfect seal against its mating > surface. Wix doesn't calim to use a silicone anti-drain back valve on all filters. The Wix advertising copy that shows a silicone anti-drain abck valve also includes a disclaimer that says "Some filters may or may not have these specific features due to OE requirements or other manufacturing processes. Refer to individual part numbers for specific details." Unfortunately the individual details available from the Wix website does nto include this information. And Fram does offer filters with silicone anti-drain back valves, you just pay more to get them (the Tough Guard product line). Ed
From: jim on 10 Dec 2009 12:11 N8N wrote: > > > > Who said it wasn't. His interpretation of the facts are what has been > > questioned. > > Not by me. Yeah and that proves what. Is it your position that if two or more people share the same belief it then becomes fact? > > > > Most full flow spin-on type oil filters are in fact arranged so that > > > the oil flows in around the perimeter and out the center hole. > > > > All of them are as far as I know. > > > > > Therefore even if there is some kind of check valve in the standpipe, > > > there really ought to be one on the inlet as well. > > > > Why because that supposition supports your fictitious and superstitious > > beliefs? > > Go easy on the insults there, buddy, especially when it's your > credibility that is razor thin. > > > > > If no air can be drawn into the filter from the outlet side, then no air can > > get into the filter or any of the plumbing from the stand pipe to oil pick up in > > the sump. No air anywhere in the system from filter to sump means no oil > > pressure problem that you guys were having. The symptoms you describe are either > > due to air in the system where there isn't supposed to be air or a blockage in > > the system such as the anti-syphon valve in the engine sticking. That was a > > problem that Chrysler reported happened in some engines. There are at least a > > half dozen different ways that air could be getting in the system. For instance, > > there are a bunch of gaskets between the oil filter and sump that could leak and > > allow air into the system. And some of the others ways have already been > > discussed. > > Or if the column of oil is high enough, air bubbles could even come up > through the oil pump - what I suspect was actually happening. > Assuming that there is even a valve in the engine. The column of oil high enough? you mean like if it was 50 feet high? There is no way air can get in from the pick up side of the oil pump unless the oil in the pan is extremely low. Your "air bubbles could even come up through the oil pump" is just another work of fiction. > > > > > > This is obviously > > > provided as a part of the filter. And has been pointed out to you > > > several times before, it's well known that if you have a slant six > > > that rod-knocks on startup and keeps the oil pressure light on for an > > > unreasonably long time after a cold start, this is almost always > > > rectified by replacing the Fram filter with a Wix filter. > > > > Bah humbug. And I suppose you believe in Santa Clause? > > I don't know who or what "Santa Clause" is unless you're referring to > the Tim Allen movie. > > > > > > So *even > > > if* whatever valve you say may or may not be included in the standpipe > > > is actually present, and *even if* on every slant six I've had, that > > > valve was defective for some reason, there *still* is an ADBV included > > > in the aftermarket oil filters available for that engine - and the > > > ones in Frams don't work, and the ones in Wix filters *do.* > > > > That statement is false. > > Prove it. I don't have to. The Society of Automotive Engineers and the International Organization for Standardization has overseen the testing that supports my position. There are both SAE and ISO standards for these things and numerous tests to verify that standards are being met. There is probably more testing done on oil filters than on the food you eat. If you think there are flaws in those test procedures you prove it. I have experience working for a small company that makes the housings that oil filters are fastened to. From what they have told me I know that after market oil filters are tested to death. There is no evidence at all from all the extensive testing to support your claims. > > > > > (note: > > > > > I've never personally removed the standpipe on a slant six, and I > > > haven't owned/driven/been near one for something like ten years now, > > > so I can't say whether that part of your post is factual or not.) > > > There's a perfectly good reason for this; Wix filters use a silicone > > > ADBV while Frams usually have nitrile ones, > > > > That may be a fact but you have no evidence it is relevant to your claims. All > > these filters are ISO tested including the ADBV. > > So why don't they work? > > > Where is the evidence from > > those test that the material makes any difference? > > It's common knowledge that nitrile gets hard in service much sooner > than silicone. That may or may not show up in the testing procedure, > but it sure shows up out in the real world. You know, where people > actually drive their cars. Yeah like no engineer ever thought of what would happen in the real world? Do you think you are the first to think of that. You think no testing has ever been done using real world conditions? > > > Someone who chooses to ignore > > the test evidence and instead rely on idiots who have only eyeballed the guts of > > a filter is superstitious IMO. > > Someone who parrots "meets manufacturers specifications" without > actually showing that a product does so and ignores real world results > is a fuckwitted idiot. That is the evidence that exists. You either rely on that evidence or like you you rely on speculation. > > > > > > above and beyond the > > > construction issues with Frams that make it more difficult for even a > > > soft, pliable ADBV to make a perfect seal against its mating surface. > > > > Even when it was -32F the rubber in the Fram filters did not fail. > > Mine did. > > > I know they > > don't fail on engines that are working as designed. > > You "know" this? How? I know for a fact that when cold a properly working slant six will not start up without oil pressure. It is designed not to do that, and in my experience with latterly hundreds of cold starts I am convinced that the design is extremely reliable. > > > I know others had the same > > experience as I had. That means I have believable evidence 1000's of these > > filters were known to never fail a single time. You want me to believe that your > > experience with a couple filters where you think they failed is going to be more > > convincing then my experience. It is just not very likely that you got all the > > bad filters and I others I know got only good ones. A person would have to be > > superstitious to believe that. > > A person would have to be "superstitious" to believe that there is > absolutely nothing to a whole mess of reports of failures just because > he himself has never experienced one. I've never blown a rod out the > side of a block, either, and I don't need to to know that that is one > possible result of running without oil. And I have observed that when people are trying to promote myths they often resort to horror stories about poorly understood events. > > > > > > Before you accuse me yet again of driving "defective" machinery, the > > > two cars on which I've observed this personally both had engines in > > > excellent mechanical condition; > > > > No you didn't. You had an oil pressure problem and a rod knock which you said > > persisted even with the WIX (only not as bad). > > I most certainly did *not* say that. > > > You described the problem > > clearly enough. It is your interpretation of the cause that is lacking. > > Riiiiiiight. > > > > > >one was a reasonably fresh reman > > > engine, and the other was a little old lady car with 80K original > > > miles. Years later I had the head off the little old lady car (due to > > > the owner of said car going too long between valve adjustments) and > > > found the bores to still be in good shape, with little sludge/residue > > > evident on the top side of the head. > > > > > Face it, you're BSing, and everyone's calling you on it. Just give > > > > No body has called me on anything. You have superstitious beliefs about what you > > think is going on in places inside the engine you can't see. These engines when > > working properly do not have low oil pressure problem you say they are prone > > to. > > I never said that they were prone to low oil pressure. I said that > when used with inferior oil filters with faulty ADBVs that they would > have a *no* oil pressure condition on a cold start. 100% factual > statement, and true for *any* engine with an upside-down filter and no > ADBV built into the filter mount. > > > You even admitted the WIX filter didn't completely fix the problem but just > > improved the symptoms. > > Nope. It fixed the problem. > > >I don't doubt that, but that isn't evidence of a bad > > filter it is evidence of a problem with the engine that was misdiagnosed. > > I fail to see how completely rectifying the problem implies > misdiagnosis. You said you changed the oil and the low oil pressure problem at start up went away. If the engine was working properly those symptoms never would have been there in the first place (the engine itself is designed to prevent that without any help from the filter). And then you said even after your so-called "fixing" the problem the engine still had a slight knock on start up. Typically on these engines when working properly the oil pressure light would go off before the engine began firing and would never exhibit symptoms of low oil pressure at startup no matter what filter was on it. -jim
From: N8N on 10 Dec 2009 14:37 On Dec 10, 12:11 pm, jim <".sjedgingN0sp"@m...(a)mwt.net> wrote: > N8N wrote: > > > > Who said it wasn't. His interpretation of the facts are what has been > > > questioned. > > > Not by me. > > Yeah and that proves what. Is it your position that if two or more people share > the same belief it then becomes fact? > > > > > > > > > > > Most full flow spin-on type oil filters are in fact arranged so that > > > > the oil flows in around the perimeter and out the center hole. > > > > All of them are as far as I know. > > > > > Therefore even if there is some kind of check valve in the standpipe, > > > > there really ought to be one on the inlet as well. > > > > Why because that supposition supports your fictitious and superstitious > > > beliefs? > > > Go easy on the insults there, buddy, especially when it's your > > credibility that is razor thin. > > > > If no air can be drawn into the filter from the outlet side, then no air can > > > get into the filter or any of the plumbing from the stand pipe to oil pick up in > > > the sump. No air anywhere in the system from filter to sump means no oil > > > pressure problem that you guys were having. The symptoms you describe are either > > > due to air in the system where there isn't supposed to be air or a blockage in > > > the system such as the anti-syphon valve in the engine sticking. That was a > > > problem that Chrysler reported happened in some engines. There are at least a > > > half dozen different ways that air could be getting in the system. For instance, > > > there are a bunch of gaskets between the oil filter and sump that could leak and > > > allow air into the system. And some of the others ways have already been > > > discussed. > > > Or if the column of oil is high enough, air bubbles could even come up > > through the oil pump - what I suspect was actually happening. > > Assuming that there is even a valve in the engine. > > The column of oil high enough? you mean like if it was 50 feet high? There is no > way air can get in from the pick up side of the oil pump unless the oil in the > pan is extremely low. Your "air bubbles could even come up through the oil pump" > is just another work of fiction. > > > > > > > > > > > This is obviously > > > > provided as a part of the filter. And has been pointed out to you > > > > several times before, it's well known that if you have a slant six > > > > that rod-knocks on startup and keeps the oil pressure light on for an > > > > unreasonably long time after a cold start, this is almost always > > > > rectified by replacing the Fram filter with a Wix filter. > > > > Bah humbug. And I suppose you believe in Santa Clause? > > > I don't know who or what "Santa Clause" is unless you're referring to > > the Tim Allen movie. > > > > > So *even > > > > if* whatever valve you say may or may not be included in the standpipe > > > > is actually present, and *even if* on every slant six I've had, that > > > > valve was defective for some reason, there *still* is an ADBV included > > > > in the aftermarket oil filters available for that engine - and the > > > > ones in Frams don't work, and the ones in Wix filters *do.* > > > > That statement is false. > > > Prove it. > > I don't have to. The Society of Automotive Engineers and the International > Organization for Standardization has overseen the testing that supports my > position. There are both SAE and ISO standards for these things and numerous > tests to verify that standards are being met. There is probably more testing > done on oil filters than on the food you eat. If you think there are flaws in > those test procedures you prove it. I have experience working for a small > company that makes the housings that oil filters are fastened to. From what they > have told me I know that after market oil filters are tested to death. There is > no evidence at all from all the extensive testing to support your claims. > > > > > > > > > > (note: > > > > > I've never personally removed the standpipe on a slant six, and I > > > > haven't owned/driven/been near one for something like ten years now, > > > > so I can't say whether that part of your post is factual or not.) > > > > There's a perfectly good reason for this; Wix filters use a silicone > > > > ADBV while Frams usually have nitrile ones, > > > > That may be a fact but you have no evidence it is relevant to your claims. All > > > these filters are ISO tested including the ADBV. > > > So why don't they work? > > > > Where is the evidence from > > > those test that the material makes any difference? > > > It's common knowledge that nitrile gets hard in service much sooner > > than silicone. That may or may not show up in the testing procedure, > > but it sure shows up out in the real world. You know, where people > > actually drive their cars. > > Yeah like no engineer ever thought of what would happen in the real world? Do > you think you are the first to think of that. You think no testing has ever been > done using real world conditions? > > > > > > Someone who chooses to ignore > > > the test evidence and instead rely on idiots who have only eyeballed the guts of > > > a filter is superstitious IMO. > > > Someone who parrots "meets manufacturers specifications" without > > actually showing that a product does so and ignores real world results > > is a fuckwitted idiot. > > That is the evidence that exists. You either rely on that evidence or like you > you rely on speculation. > > > > > > > above and beyond the > > > > construction issues with Frams that make it more difficult for even a > > > > soft, pliable ADBV to make a perfect seal against its mating surface. > > > > Even when it was -32F the rubber in the Fram filters did not fail. > > > Mine did. > > > > I know they > > > don't fail on engines that are working as designed. > > > You "know" this? How? > > I know for a fact that when cold a properly working slant six will not start up > without oil pressure. It is designed not to do that, and in my experience with > latterly hundreds of cold starts I am convinced that the design is extremely > reliable. > > > > > > I know others had the same > > > experience as I had. That means I have believable evidence 1000's of these > > > filters were known to never fail a single time. You want me to believe that your > > > experience with a couple filters where you think they failed is going to be more > > > convincing then my experience. It is just not very likely that you got all the > > > bad filters and I others I know got only good ones. A person would have to be > > > superstitious to believe that. > > > A person would have to be "superstitious" to believe that there is > > absolutely nothing to a whole mess of reports of failures just because > > he himself has never experienced one. I've never blown a rod out the > > side of a block, either, and I don't need to to know that that is one > > possible result of running without oil. > > And I have observed that when people are trying to promote myths they often > resort to horror stories about poorly understood events. > > > > > > > > > > > Before you accuse me yet again of driving "defective" machinery, the > > > > two cars on which I've observed this personally both had engines in > > > > excellent mechanical condition; > > > > No you didn't. You had an oil pressure problem and a rod knock which you said > > > persisted even with the WIX (only not as bad). > > > I most certainly did *not* say that. > > > > You described the problem > > > clearly enough. It is your interpretation of the cause that is lacking. > > > Riiiiiiight. > > > > >one was a reasonably fresh reman > > > > engine, and the other was a little old lady car with 80K original > > > > miles. Years later I had the head off the little old lady car (due to > > > > the owner of said car going too long between valve adjustments) and > > > > found the bores to still be in good shape, with little sludge/residue > > > > evident on the top side of the head. > > > > > Face it, you're BSing, and everyone's calling you on it. Just give > > > > No body has called me on anything. You have superstitious beliefs about what you > > > think is going on in places inside the engine you can't see. These engines when > > > working properly do not have low oil pressure problem you say they are prone > > > to. > > > I never said that they were prone to low oil pressure. I said that > > when used with inferior oil filters with faulty ADBVs that they would > > have a *no* oil pressure condition on a cold start. 100% factual > > statement, and true for *any* engine with an upside-down filter and no > > ADBV built into the filter mount. > > > > You even admitted the WIX filter didn't completely fix the problem but just > > > improved the symptoms. > > > Nope. It fixed the problem. > > > >I don't doubt that, but that isn't evidence of a bad > > > filter it is evidence of a problem with the engine that was misdiagnosed. > > > I fail to see how completely rectifying the problem implies > > misdiagnosis. > > You said you changed the oil and the low oil pressure problem at start up went > away. If the engine was working properly those symptoms never would have been > there in the first place (the engine itself is designed to prevent that without > any help from the filter). And then you said even after your so-called "fixing" > the problem the engine still had a slight knock on start up. Typically on these > engines when working properly the oil pressure light would go off before the > engine began firing and would never exhibit symptoms of low oil pressure at > startup no matter what filter was on it. > > -jim- You're an idiot. No use wasting any more electrons on you. Go ahead and use your shitty orange cans, I don't care. I just hope you're not a real mechanic and never do any work on any of my cars. I'd like to say that that's impossible, but I *have* seen some really incompetent "mechanics" out there. nate
From: jim on 10 Dec 2009 15:11
N8N wrote: > > You're an idiot. No use wasting any more electrons on you. I suppose you believe in order for me to become not an idiot I would need to have an engine with low oil pressure and spread folklore tales on the internet about how my engine got to be like that? I guess in your mind, everyone who is not having that experience is obviously demonstrating idiocy. >Go ahead > and use your shitty orange cans, I don't care. I just hope you're not > a real mechanic and never do any work on any of my cars. I'd like to > say that that's impossible, but I *have* seen some really incompetent > "mechanics" out there. > It's not hard to see why you would be concerned about finding a good mechanic. With your superstitions it would be just as hard for you to determine if a mechanic was competent to fix your problems as it would for you to figure out what is wrong yourself. -jim |