NHTSA Report from 2008 on Lexus ES350 UA
in [Toyota]
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From: JoeSpareBedroom on 16 Mar 2010 10:33 "Obveeus" <Obveeus(a)aol.com> wrote in message news:hno3jd$of8$1(a)news.eternal-september.org... > > "JoeSpareBedroom" <newstrash(a)frontiernet.net> wrote in message > news:UYLnn.76009$wr5.53943(a)newsfe22.iad... >> "Obveeus" <Obveeus(a)aol.com> wrote in message >> news:hno1ag$ca0$1(a)news.eternal-september.org... >>> >>> "JoeSpareBedroom" <newstrash(a)frontiernet.net> wrote: >>> >>>> "Obveeus" <Obveeus(a)aol.com> wrote in message >>>> news:hno0cn$719$1(a)news.eternal-september.org... >>>>> >>>>> "JoeSpareBedroom" <newstrash(a)frontiernet.net> wrote in message >>>>> news:ZsLnn.76005$wr5.67692(a)newsfe22.iad... >>>>>> "Obveeus" <Obveeus(a)aol.com> wrote in message >>>>>> news:hnnvfe$2qm$1(a)news.eternal-september.org... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "JoeSpareBedroom" <newstrash(a)frontiernet.net> wrote in message >>>>>>> news:F4Lnn.75999$wr5.45038(a)newsfe22.iad... >>>>>>>> "Obveeus" <Obveeus(a)aol.com> wrote in message >>>>>>>> news:hnnu6j$s0d$1(a)news.eternal-september.org... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "C. E. White" <cewhite3remove(a)mindspring.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I read that Toyota was going to implement an alternate strategy >>>>>>>>>> that would shut down the engine if the button was pushed multiple >>>>>>>>>> times over a short period (this would be in addition to the >>>>>>>>>> original "push it for 3 sec" shut down mode). The feeling is that >>>>>>>>>> this is what some one might do in a panic situation - >>>>>>>>>> partucalurly some one not familar with the car (or someone wo >>>>>>>>>> didn't bother to read the manual). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> That sort of additional 'off method' would be a good idea. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Don't Prius owners have to push the magic "off" button when they >>>>>>>> arrive at their destination, or do those cars just sorta sense when >>>>>>>> the trip's over and shut themselves off? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Presumably, that event occurs with the car in stopped (maybe even >>>>>>> after they have pressed the park button), so they don't need to hold >>>>>>> the 'off' power button down for 3 seconds. >>>>>> >>>>>> Presumably. The life blood of newsgroups. >>>>> >>>>> I could have used the word 'obviously' or 'logically' as well since >>>>> both would fit for anyone honestly trying to understand the situation. >>>>> >>>>> In any case, it makes infinitely more sense than 'presuming' that >>>>> people know how to use a feature that they have never had to use >>>>> before (emergency shutoff method of a runaway vehicle) and 'presuming' >>>>> that they will remember to do it while in a panic situation. >>>> >>>> Other than "the trip is over", there are other situations where one >>>> might stop and put the car in park. Why program the car to shut off in >>>> those situations, in the exact same way it would shut off when the trip >>>> is, in fact, over? >>> >>> You do know that there is a difference between 'park' and 'off', right? >> >> That's what I just said. > > No, it isn't. > >>> Your question above suggests that you need to look at how the Prius is >>> operated at least a little bit. >> >> That makes you and I exactly equal in this discussion. >> >> >>> You are the guy making fun of people for not reading manuals, right? >> >> That's right. But just like you, I'm guessing. My guess is that with a >> Prius, there's a difference between the following situations: >> >> 1) In PARK, stopped at a drive-up ATM. >> 2) Done with the car, trip over. > > Situation #1 results in pressing the 'park' button. > Situation #2 results in pressing the 'power' button. (off) > There's a park button? But others are saying drivers could've shifted into neutral in emergency situations. >> In situation #2, I'm guessing that the driver uses the OFF button, which >> means that the driver already knows what that button does and has no need >> to read the manual. > > The operation of the button is different when in park (or stopped) than it > is when the car is moving at speed. The need to *hold the button down* > for 3+ seconds is a 'feature' for the at speed situation, right? Do you own one of these cars?
From: C. E. White on 16 Mar 2010 12:14 "Obveeus" <Obveeus(a)aol.com> wrote in message news:hnnu6j$s0d$1(a)news.eternal-september.org... > > "C. E. White" <cewhite3remove(a)mindspring.com> wrote: > >> I read that Toyota was going to implement an alternate strategy >> that would shut down the engine if the button was pushed multiple >> times over a short period (this would be in addition to the >> original "push it for 3 sec" shut down mode). The feeling is that >> this is what some one might do in a panic situation - partucalurly >> some one not familar with the car (or someone wo didn't bother to >> read the manual). > > That sort of additional 'off method' would be a good idea. > >>> They probably didn't know what ESC meant either. >> >> They don't need to know what it means, it is fully automatic. >> >>>>. Many owners complained that the neutral gear position in the >>>>gated >>>>shift pattern was >>>>not immediately obvious, leading to unsuccessful attempts to >>>>disengage >>>>the engine >>>>from the drive wheels. >>> >>> More poor design. >> >> I griped about the Toyota shifter gate design philosophy a couple >> of years back when my SO first got her RAV4. It is ridiculously >> over complicated. I've gotten used to it, but it is still a bad >> design. I can see where a driver unfamiliar with the design could >> have problems during a stressful event. > > This certainly isn't a problem for the Prius, though, as its > shirfter is as simplistic as could be designed. Basically: > Drive-Neutral-Reverse. > Still, even with the stairstep shifter in the referenced Lexus, > wouldn't any shift at all result in slowing the car down? Shift one > way from Drive and you get lower gearing which would slow the car > down and shift the other way from Drive and you get Neutral. The > car won't let a person shift into Reverse while moving, so the > shifter, even with the stairstep complexity, still seems foolproof > in that any shift away from Drive would slow/stop the car. I have not driven a Lexus, so I don't know exactly how they are gated. For the RAV4s and Highlanders I have driven, once you have gotten to neutral, you move the shift level straight down from neutral to "D" (D is what some call over drive). As long as you don't do anything else, then you can just bump it back up into neutral. However, once in "D" you can move the shifter to the left to disengage overdrive. If you are in this position, then you have to move the lever back to the right before you move the lever up into neutral. I can see how someone in a panic situation might grasp the shifter and inadvertently move it to the left and then get confused when it would not go straight back to neutral. I suppose some Toyotas also have the optional man-u-matic postion where you can bump the lever up and down to change gears. If so, I can see where that might confuse things in a panic situation as well. The Prius is completely different. It jsut has forward, neutral, and reverse. I can't see how it would be confusing to anyone. Ed
From: JoeSpareBedroom on 16 Mar 2010 12:21 "Conscience" <nobama@g�v.com> wrote in message news:hnob1n$b3t$1(a)news.albasani.net... > On 2010-03-16 09:14:13 -0700, "C. E. White" <cewhite3(a)mindspring.com> > said: > >> The Prius is completely different. It just has forward, neutral, and >> reverse. I can't see how it would be confusing to anyone. > > Observe how some people push a supermarket shopping cart. > > Then extrapolate. > You're a funny old person. You believe that by commenting on the type of car someone drives, you'll compensate for your own "man issues". But hey - it's harmless. I hope it makes you feel better.
From: Mike Hunter on 16 Mar 2010 12:34 With the engine "throttle plate" open, the vacuum power assist of the braking system??? What throttle plate? The fuel system in that Lexus is a MEFI, with individual cylinder injectors and coils. "dbu''" <nospam(a)nobama.com.invalid> wrote in message news:5aCdnQwfFMuTXQPWnZ2dnUVZ_vkAAAAA(a)giganews.com... > In article > <2922ae6c-e21a-49b0-9a49-80076bc8c3fa(a)q16g2000yqq.googlegroups.com>, > Ed White <ce.white3(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> I have been hard on NHTSA adminstartion ecasue I feel they did not pay >> enough attention to the Toyota UA complaints. However, I did come >> across what I think was a very good report on an investigation of UA >> concerns as they relate to the Lexus ES350. A copy is at >> http://www.autosafety.org/sites/default/files/nhtsa%20final%20report%20VRTC%20 >> EA07-010%20Lexus%20Floor%20Mat.pdf >> . >> >> Here is the sumary: >> >> "4.0 Summary >> � Mechanical interferences at the accelerator pedal revealed that the >> accelerator pedal >> assembly was easily entrapped in the groove of the rubber all-weather >> floor mat if the >> rubber mat was not properly secured with at least one of the two >> retaining hooks. >> >> � A survey was sent to 1986 registered owners of a 2007 Lexus ES-350 >> requesting >> information regarding episodes of unintended acceleration. Of the 600 >> people that >> responded, 59 stated that they experienced unintended acceleration and >> 35 >> complained of pedal interference with the Lexus rubber all-weather >> floor mats. >> >> � With the engine throttle plate open, the vacuum power assist of the >> braking system >> cannot be replenished and the effectiveness of the brakes is reduced >> significantly. >> o Brake pedal force in excess of 150 pounds was required to stop the >> vehicle, >> compared to 30 pounds required when the vehicle is operating normally. >> o ESC activation may restore vacuum to the brake booster, providing a >> significant >> increase in braking capability, but only until ESC activity ceases. >> >> � The owner survey indicated the 3 second delay in the operation of >> the ignition button >> is not widely known by owners and because of this, drivers found >> themselves unable >> to turn off the engine when the vehicle was in motion. >> >> � Many owners complained that the neutral gear position in the gated >> shift pattern was >> not immediately obvious, leading to unsuccessful attempts to disengage >> the engine >> from the drive wheels. >> >> Ed > > Technology has surpassed operator skills and failure of operator to read > instruction books provided. > -- >
From: Obveeus on 16 Mar 2010 12:41
"JoeSpareBedroom" <newstrash(a)frontiernet.net> wrote: > "Obveeus" <Obveeus(a)aol.com> wrote in message >> Situation #1 results in pressing the 'park' button. >> Situation #2 results in pressing the 'power' button. (off) >> > There's a park button? But others are saying drivers could've shifted into > neutral in emergency situations. Having a 'park' button doesn't negate having a shifter than can be put in neutral. I have been trying to help you to improve your trolling to a level where it offers some level of logic and credibility, but I can't do all the work for you. You still have to attempt to make sense. |