Toyota's electronic throttle, and..
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From: Daniel who wants to know on 28 Mar 2010 00:29 "Mike Hunter" <Mikehunt2(a)lycos,com> wrote in message news:4bad3bdb$0$16547$ce5e7886(a)news-radius.ptd.net... > Depends, did the brakes fail as is the case with the Prius? > > By "brakes fail" I assume you are referring to the .8 second lapse where the car coasts when the 2010 transitions from regen to friction brakes due to an ABS activation right?
From: C. E. White on 28 Mar 2010 18:03 "Stewart" <gortamus(a)gmail.com> wrote in message news:hok4u6$ke2$1(a)news.eternal-september.org... > > "Tegger" <invalid(a)invalid.inv> wrote in message > news:Xns9D46D48D312C4tegger(a)208.90.168.18... >> ...just why Sudden Unintended Acceleration is virtually impossible. >> >> <http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/how_to/4347704.html> >> >> The author does not mention it, but the NHTSA closely regulates the >> design >> of the electronic throttle and its firmware. It is, by design, not >> possible >> to "hack" into the firmware in order to modify or disable it. >> >> -- >> Tegger >> > > Now I'm not sure about Toyota, but there was something disturbing about my > daughters car, a 2005 Saturn Vue. GM had a recall on the CVT > transmissions in these. Of course, since they went through bankruptcy GM > believes that they no longer need to honor the recall, but anyway, I will > digress..... > > The dealer replaced the transmission (GM did pay 50%), and for the first > few days, the car was fine. About 5 days after bringing the car home from > the shop, while in the garage she started the vehicle one morning. The > engine raced on it's own, and the speedo was reading about 50 mph even > though the car was in park and the pedal wasn't being pressed. She turned > it off, and called me in...and I started it up and the same thing > happened. > > I called the dealer and explained what happened. The rep put me on hold, > came back about 3 minutes later and told me in no uncertain terms not to > drive the car (which I pretty much figured myself, duh), they will pick it > up. They were at my house with a tow truck within half an hour, took the > car and gave us a rental until another replacement transmission arrived > and was installed. > > I've asked them numerous times what from the transmission would make that > happen...some kind of sensor with a feedback into the motor? They would > not give me a straight answer on this, but it sure makes me wonder.... I was the unfortunate owner of Vue with the CVT transmission as well. I also got a new transmission (and promptly traded off the car). The control system on those cars was very complicated since the ECM altered both the engine speed and the transmission gear ratio based on the vehicle speed and accelerator pedal position. As a wild guess, I'd suspect the vehicle speed sensor was hosed and the engine controller was attempting to match the engine speed and transmission gear ratio to the false road speed reading - even though the car was not moving. In addition to the new transmission at around 38,000 miles, my Vue had also had the transmission in for another recall early on. Basically GM just screwed the pooch on that CVT. In theory it was a good idea, in practice the GM design sucked. My parents had a Ford Freestyle with a ZF supplied CVT and it never had a problem, so I know it can be done. I also think Nissans sells a number of vehicles with CVTs and I don't recall hearing that those had a lot of problems (ditto for Honda and Toyota). Maybe the GM CVT was just overstressed behind a 2 liter engine. I was actually satisfied with the Vue for the first 3 years I owned it. I did have to take it in to have the CVT programmed during that time, but as long as I was the principal driver it seemed OK. However, after my Son started driving, the CVT didn't last three months. Neither did the horn, or several other items. My final conclusion was that the Vue was designed for little old lady school teachers. Ed
From: Stewart on 28 Mar 2010 21:37 "C. E. White" <cewhite3remove(a)mindspring.com> wrote in message news:_eudncfJquWzTzLWnZ2dnUVZ_qSdnZ2d(a)earthlink.com... > > "Stewart" <gortamus(a)gmail.com> wrote in message > news:hok4u6$ke2$1(a)news.eternal-september.org... >> >> "Tegger" <invalid(a)invalid.inv> wrote in message >> news:Xns9D46D48D312C4tegger(a)208.90.168.18... >>> ...just why Sudden Unintended Acceleration is virtually >>> impossible. >>> >>> <http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/how_to/4347704.html> >>> >>> The author does not mention it, but the NHTSA closely regulates >>> the design >>> of the electronic throttle and its firmware. It is, by design, not >>> possible >>> to "hack" into the firmware in order to modify or disable it. >>> >>> -- >>> Tegger >>> >> >> Now I'm not sure about Toyota, but there was something disturbing >> about my daughters car, a 2005 Saturn Vue. GM had a recall on the >> CVT transmissions in these. Of course, since they went through >> bankruptcy GM believes that they no longer need to honor the >> recall, but anyway, I will digress..... >> >> The dealer replaced the transmission (GM did pay 50%), and for the >> first few days, the car was fine. About 5 days after bringing the >> car home from the shop, while in the garage she started the vehicle >> one morning. The engine raced on it's own, and the speedo was >> reading about 50 mph even though the car was in park and the pedal >> wasn't being pressed. She turned it off, and called me in...and I >> started it up and the same thing happened. >> >> I called the dealer and explained what happened. The rep put me on >> hold, came back about 3 minutes later and told me in no uncertain >> terms not to drive the car (which I pretty much figured myself, >> duh), they will pick it up. They were at my house with a tow truck >> within half an hour, took the car and gave us a rental until >> another replacement transmission arrived and was installed. >> >> I've asked them numerous times what from the transmission would >> make that happen...some kind of sensor with a feedback into the >> motor? They would not give me a straight answer on this, but it >> sure makes me wonder.... > > I was the unfortunate owner of Vue with the CVT transmission as > well. I also got a new transmission (and promptly traded off the > car). > > The control system on those cars was very complicated since the ECM > altered both the engine speed and the transmission gear ratio based > on the vehicle speed and accelerator pedal position. As a wild > guess, I'd suspect the vehicle speed sensor was hosed and the engine > controller was attempting to match the engine speed and transmission > gear ratio to the false road speed reading - even though the car was > not moving. > > In addition to the new transmission at around 38,000 miles, my Vue > had also had the transmission in for another recall early on. > Basically GM just screwed the pooch on that CVT. In theory it was a > good idea, in practice the GM design sucked. My parents had a Ford > Freestyle with a ZF supplied CVT and it never had a problem, so I > know it can be done. I also think Nissans sells a number of vehicles > with CVTs and I don't recall hearing that those had a lot of > problems (ditto for Honda and Toyota). Maybe the GM CVT was just > overstressed behind a 2 liter engine. > > I was actually satisfied with the Vue for the first 3 years I owned > it. I did have to take it in to have the CVT programmed during that > time, but as long as I was the principal driver it seemed OK. > However, after my Son started driving, the CVT didn't last three > months. Neither did the horn, or several other items. My final > conclusion was that the Vue was designed for little old lady school > teachers. > > Ed Well, we did get 90k out of the first one.....not a record....but yes, it is time for it to go.
From: Dillon Pyron on 5 Apr 2010 00:30 Thus spake "Stewart" <gortamus(a)gmail.com> : > >"chuckcar" <chuck(a)nil.car> wrote in message >news:Xns9D48A821FC7F4chuck(a)127.0.0.1... >> "Stewart" <gortamus(a)gmail.com> wrote in >> news:hok4u6$ke2$1(a)news.eternal-september.org: >> >>> >>> "Tegger" <invalid(a)invalid.inv> wrote in message >>> news:Xns9D46D48D312C4tegger(a)208.90.168.18... >>>> ...just why Sudden Unintended Acceleration is virtually >>>> impossible. >> >>> I've asked them numerous times what from the transmission would >>> make >>> that happen...some kind of sensor with a feedback into the motor? >>> They would not give me a straight answer on this, but it sure makes >>> me >>> wonder.... >>> >> My wild guess is that you simply were not talking to anyone who >> actually >> knew. >> >> >> >> >> -- >> (setq (chuck nil) car(chuck) ) > >Well, their reactions to the problem were far too quick for me to >believe it was just good customer service. The dealer is a good 20-25 >mins away, and they were there in 30 from the time I hung up the >phone. Even my daughter was saying "wow, they got here quick!", and >we had a freebie rental car not long after that. > >While there may be "failsafe" mechanisms in place for sudden and >unwanted acceleration, just what would make the speedometer read at 50 >MPH and the engine race while in park that would be part of the >transmission? Some kind of speed feedback sensor? I would have to >believe that if this happened while driving the vehicle, it could have >created a dangerous situation. My phone calls and emails to Saturn >have gone unanswered....but I will eventually find an answer. > It is quite possible that the fault lay not in the part but in the instalation. Say a harness connection that wasn't 100% solid or some such. Do you know for absolute fact that the replacement replacement really was a "new" (likely rebuilt) tranny? It could also have been an issue of a bad rebuild. -- - dillon I am not invalid The more I drink, the less I think. The less I think, the better I feel. The better I feel, the more I drink. And so goes the circle of life.
From: chuckcar on 5 Apr 2010 17:26
Dillon Pyron <invaliddmpyron(a)austin.rr.com> wrote in news:ajoir5hdhkg07je70khhr8bp6je7benl9b(a)4ax.com: > Followups set because you post to a.a.h and then dumped it for a > followup. > I stopped doing followup-to headers in this group with a short number of groups at the request of another poster here - specifically the very person I was replying to. Three groups that are pretty closely related is not something one needs to worry about in that regard anyways IMHO. > Thus spake chuckcar <chuck(a)nil.car> : > >>> Of course. And you could take a roll of sheet steel and turn it into >>> a car body; you could turn a steel billet into a fully-automatic >>> firearm; you could turn a bag of lawn fertilizer into a bomb. >>>> >>Yes, that was partially my point. The other part was that there simply >>is no way to flash the ROM like some trojan would do to some internet >>noobs router. > > When you say ROM you mean PROM, right? One doesn't "flash" ROM, one > fabs it. As in a ROM is hard silicon with no programmable features. > The term ROM refers to EAPROMS, PROMS (that you erase with UV light) and hardwired ROMS that can't be erased. PROMS can only be written to by completely erasing them and re-writing the whole ROM. That's completely different from RAM, where you can modify any byte or bit. -- (setq (chuck nil) car(chuck) ) |