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From: chuckcar on 26 Mar 2010 00:40
Ed White <ce.white3(a)gmail.com> wrote in
news:bb31d261-4a17-4139-9db8-0d14c4b8d873(a)r27g2000yqn.googlegroups.com:

> On Mar 25, 8:53�pm, Tegger <inva...(a)invalid.inv> wrote:
>> ...just why Sudden Unintended Acceleration is virtually impossible.
>>
>> <http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/how_to/4347704.html>
>>
>> The author does not mention it, but the NHTSA closely regulates the
>> desig
> n
>> of the electronic throttle and its firmware. It is, by design, not
>> possib
> le
>> to "hack" into the firmware in order to modify or disable it.
>>
>> --
>> Tegger
>
> The article was very good and I believe the conclusions are correct
> (i.e., it is not the electronics). I do wonder about your statement.
> Anything to back it up? Exactly how does NHTSA closely regulate the
> design? The firmware is in the ECM, and people are constantly screwing
> with that. My son has some sort of programer that allows him to screw
> up the ECM in his Mustang (and I do mean screw it up). I looked at the
> Toyota shop manual for the RAV4 and it appears to me all the throttle
> control stuff is handled by the ECM, so I can't see how that is any
> more secure than any of the other firmware.
>
What you're talking about here is talking about is on the auto shows
fixup shows such as they have on SPEED TV. You're not actually erasing
the EPROM and then putting new machine language into it replacing what was
originally there. You're changing variables such as valve timing and so
on. This difference may only be apparent to people who *have* written
computer programs like myself. It can of course damage an vehicle just
as removing a rev limiter or boosting the engine with too much nitrous
will do. Nothing more.


--
(setq (chuck nil) car(chuck) )
From: chuckcar on 26 Mar 2010 00:41
Tegger <invalid(a)invalid.inv> wrote in
news:Xns9D46DE616F236tegger(a)208.90.168.18:

> chuckcar <chuck(a)nil.car> wrote in
> news:Xns9D46D713F7AC1chuck(a)127.0.0.1:
>
>> Tegger <invalid(a)invalid.inv> wrote in
>> news:Xns9D46D48D312C4tegger(a)208.90.168.18:
>>
>>> ...just why Sudden Unintended Acceleration is virtually impossible.
>>>
>>> <http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/how_to/4347704.html>
>>>
>>> The author does not mention it, but the NHTSA closely regulates the
>>> design of the electronic throttle and its firmware. It is, by
>>> design, not possible to "hack" into the firmware in order to modify
>>> or disable it.
>>>
>> No. You'd have to have to have the pin that enables erasing/rewriting
>> of the EEPROM/EAPROM IC used and the hardware (electric and
>> electronic) to support it to be able to do it. One *could* however
>> physically take the ROM out and completely rewrite it, if you could
>> rebuild the module you destroy by doing this. That is entirely
>> possible and anyone could do it with enough technical knowledge,
>> ability and the right pieces. Anyone can buy a PROM programmer.
>
> Of course. And you could take a roll of sheet steel and turn it into a
> car body; you could turn a steel billet into a fully-automatic
> firearm; you could turn a bag of lawn fertilizer into a bomb.
>>
Yes, that was partially my point. The other part was that there simply
is no way to flash the ROM like some trojan would do to some internet
noobs router.

>> That's all beyond the scope of such an article of course, but it
>> shows what is involved in doing it sucessfully.
>
> Surely, but nobody's alleging tampering. Instead the allegations are
> of defects from the factory, and that's where the silliness comes in.
>
Perhaps, I'll reserve my judgement on that until I see some real
conclusions in this Toyota mess. It could easily be minor bugs in the
actual ROMS however. Extremely doubtful, but always a possibility.


--
(setq (chuck nil) car(chuck) )
From: Tegger on 26 Mar 2010 07:45
chuckcar <chuck(a)nil.car> wrote in news:Xns9D474BA4D988chuck(a)127.0.0.1:

> Tegger <invalid(a)invalid.inv> wrote in
> news:Xns9D46DE616F236tegger(a)208.90.168.18:

>>
>> but nobody's alleging tampering. Instead the allegations are
>> of defects from the factory, and that's where the silliness comes in.
>>
> Perhaps, I'll reserve my judgement on that until I see some real
> conclusions in this Toyota mess. It could easily be minor bugs in the
> actual ROMS however. Extremely doubtful, but always a possibility.
>
>



Why do you keep setting a Followup to rec.autos.tech? I only crossposted to
three groups, all of which have had extensive discussions regarding this
matter, and all which I thought would benefit from a discussion of the
article I originally referenced (and which only Ed White seems to have
actually read).

<http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/how_to/4347704.html>


--
Tegger

From: croy on 26 Mar 2010 14:57
On Fri, 26 Mar 2010 02:00:07 +0000 (UTC), Tegger
<invalid(a)invalid.inv> wrote:



>A Toyota MDT told me this. He and his cohorts have received
>extensive factory training on the electronic throttle as part of the normal
>dealership-tech training. And they've had some very intensive additions
>to that training on account of the recent controversies


Any company that make electronic devices that *shouldn't* be
crackable, is very likely to advertise that they *aren't*
crackable. Think electronic voting machines.

After all, if the makers thought the devices were, indeed,
crackable, they wouldn't really have a marketable product,
would they? So even if they new, or just thought that the
device might be crackable, they're are never going to admit
it--rather they will emphatically advertise/teach that the
device "IS NOT CRACKABLE!".

--
croy
From: Mike Hunter on 26 Mar 2010 15:38
I Had a scary experience this morning. I was driving in heavy traffic when
a woman came up behind me driving a Toyota. She had her cell phone to her
ear in her right hand and a cigarette in the other. I was relieved when
she turn left, but they guy she cut in front of, was a bit rattled. ;)


"croy" <hate(a)spam.invalid.net> wrote in message
news:3g0qq5l1qc2g54l2uvoffs48rlvddploep(a)4ax.com...
> On Fri, 26 Mar 2010 02:00:07 +0000 (UTC), Tegger
> <invalid(a)invalid.inv> wrote:
>
>
>
>>A Toyota MDT told me this. He and his cohorts have received
>>extensive factory training on the electronic throttle as part of the
>>normal
>>dealership-tech training. And they've had some very intensive additions
>>to that training on account of the recent controversies
>
>
> Any company that make electronic devices that *shouldn't* be
> crackable, is very likely to advertise that they *aren't*
> crackable. Think electronic voting machines.
>
> After all, if the makers thought the devices were, indeed,
> crackable, they wouldn't really have a marketable product,
> would they? So even if they new, or just thought that the
> device might be crackable, they're are never going to admit
> it--rather they will emphatically advertise/teach that the
> device "IS NOT CRACKABLE!".
>
> --
> croy


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