And now, a word about head gaskets...
in [Toyota]
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From: jim beam on 7 Jun 2010 23:35 On 06/07/2010 08:15 PM, Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B wrote: > On Mon, 07 Jun 2010 19:33:44 -0700, jim beam wrote: > >> On 06/07/2010 03:21 PM, Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B wrote: >>> On Mon, 07 Jun 2010 22:08:23 +0000, Gary L Burnore wrote: >>> >>>> In alt.autos.toyota Hachiroku ????<Trueno(a)e86.gts> wrote: >>>>> It has been recommended (RE: my '88 Supra with an apparent BHG...) >>>>> that I PARK THE CAR AND PULL THE HEAD! >>>>> >>>>> So, this I will do. Given that once I pull the head the HG is toast >>>>> even if it's not blown, I obviously have to buy a new one. >>>>> >>>>> I have seen them as low as $17; also $26, with $58 being the usual >>>>> on-line price. Beck-Arnley wants ~$60, some places advertise Fel-Pro >>>>> at $58, or $17, or $26. My band's guitar player said yesterday, "Eh, >>>>> $12, big deal". I told him about the prices I was finding. >>>>> >>>> I put a felpro in mine on the blow, first was from toyota. It is still >>>> running strong 150K later and I beat on it. >>> >>> Really? How much was it and where did you get it? Did you do this >>> yourself? >>> >>> >>> >>>>> The thing I SHOULD do, obviously, is pull the engine and have the >>>>> whole thing refreshed. A local engine guy, who's one of the best in >>>>> the country quoted me $2200 for complete bottom end refurb, and I know >>>>> when I get it back it will be one of the best 7M-GEs in the country. >>>> >>>> The thing you should consider is getting one from japan, used, always >>>> guaranteed at or less than 40K miles on the engine. Comes with pretty >>>> much everything. Starter, alternator, another air conditioning >>>> compressor etc. >>>> >>>> >>> Last I saw (Toyota has since removed this lsit from their site. Don't >>> ask me how I stumbled upon it...) was a whole bottom, NEW from Toyota >>> was $2,500!!!! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>>> >>> >> call these guys - http://nippon-motors.com/ >> >> i've used them before - their prices are great, and the product has been >> excellent. they know what they're doing too. > > DAMN! $595 for an engine!! > > I'm going to try to repair this one, but I will remember them if things > don't go well... > > Replacing the engine will be MUCH more of a PITA than the HG, maybe on yours, but typically not. you can get a motor out in a couple of hours and back in again in a couple more. stripping a head, cleaning, prepping and measuring, and careful CLEAN reassembly almost always takes a lot longer. on a modern overhead cam motor anyway. > and the car > already has ~220,000 miles on it. If it were only 160,000 I'd go for a new > engine and trans (did I mention the tranny has "issues" as well?) economics and labor both say replace. besides, you've already had the head off this motor once before. if you want, i can explain in detail, but most times, it's hard to get a motor to last well once it's been stripped. -- nomina rutrum rutrum
From: m6onz5a on 8 Jun 2010 05:33 On Jun 7, 7:45 pm, cl...(a)snyder.on.ca wrote: > On Mon, 07 Jun 2010 17:54:23 -0400, Hachiroku ???? <Tru...(a)e86.GTS> > wrote: > > >It has been recommended (RE: my '88 Supra with an apparent BHG...) > >that I PARK THE CAR AND PULL THE HEAD! > > >So, this I will do. Given that once I pull the head the HG is toast even > >if it's not blown, I obviously have to buy a new one. > > >I have seen them as low as $17; also $26, with $58 being the usual on-line > >price. Beck-Arnley wants ~$60, some places advertise Fel-Pro at $58, or > >$17, or $26. My band's guitar player said yesterday, "Eh, $12, big deal".. > >I told him about the prices I was finding. > > >Toyota's list is $115; the best on-line price I have found is $85 and the > >locval dealer will match that. > > Buy Felpro > > > > > > >I'm kinda answering my own question here. The 7M-GE has a nasty habit of > >blowing HGs, and IIRC the HG was replaced on this car a year before I > >bought it. he total cost of the job was a shade under $1,000. When I had > >the valve covers off to replace the gaskets I checked the torque on the > >head bolts and they were above 68 ft/lbs; the original spec was 58 ft/lbs > >and a Toyota TSB about BHGs said 72 ft/lbs (IIRC) was recommended, so > >whoever did the job knew they had to use the revised spec. I'm betting > >they used and off-the-rack gasket and maybe mostly responsible for why I > >have to do it again. > > >So, do I go aftermarket, save a few bucks and perhaps have to do it all > >again in 7 years or so? The car is now 22 years old. If I do have to do > >the HG again it will be ~30 years old; it's not in *bad* shape, but it's > >not a Collector's Item, either. > > >Or, do I spend the $85 and get the Real Deal and hope things are good > >enough to get another 80,000 miles out of it (it has ~220,000 now...)? > > The FelPro is at least as good as the original > > > > >The thing I SHOULD do, obviously, is pull the engine and have the whole > >thing refreshed. A local engine guy, who's one of the best in the country > >quoted me $2200 for complete bottom end refurb, and I know when I get it > >back it will be one of the best 7M-GEs in the country. Felpro gaskets are actually BETTER than OE. They don't just make OE gaskets, they actually make improvements on the design so they work better.
From: Vic Smith on 8 Jun 2010 11:19 On Mon, 07 Jun 2010 17:54:23 -0400, Hachiroku ???? <Trueno(a)e86.GTS> wrote: >It has been recommended (RE: my '88 Supra with an apparent BHG...) >that I PARK THE CAR AND PULL THE HEAD! > >So, this I will do. Given that once I pull the head the HG is toast even >if it's not blown, I obviously have to buy a new one. > >I have seen them as low as $17; also $26, with $58 being the usual on-line >price. Beck-Arnley wants ~$60, some places advertise Fel-Pro at $58, or >$17, or $26. My band's guitar player said yesterday, "Eh, $12, big deal". >I told him about the prices I was finding. > >Toyota's list is $115; the best on-line price I have found is $85 and the >locval dealer will match that. > >I'm kinda answering my own question here. The 7M-GE has a nasty habit of >blowing HGs, and IIRC the HG was replaced on this car a year before I >bought it. he total cost of the job was a shade under $1,000. When I had >the valve covers off to replace the gaskets I checked the torque on the >head bolts and they were above 68 ft/lbs; the original spec was 58 ft/lbs >and a Toyota TSB about BHGs said 72 ft/lbs (IIRC) was recommended, so >whoever did the job knew they had to use the revised spec. I'm betting >they used and off-the-rack gasket and maybe mostly responsible for why I >have to do it again. > >So, do I go aftermarket, save a few bucks and perhaps have to do it all >again in 7 years or so? The car is now 22 years old. If I do have to do >the HG again it will be ~30 years old; it's not in *bad* shape, but it's >not a Collector's Item, either. > >Or, do I spend the $85 and get the Real Deal and hope things are good >enough to get another 80,000 miles out of it (it has ~220,000 now...)? > >The thing I SHOULD do, obviously, is pull the engine and have the whole >thing refreshed. A local engine guy, who's one of the best in the country >quoted me $2200 for complete bottom end refurb, and I know when I get it >back it will be one of the best 7M-GEs in the country. > If there's a Supra forum(s), check that out for gasket recommendations. It's not a given the Fel-Pro will have the best gasket. For the GM 3800 Series II lower intakes the Fel-Pro was said to be identical to the problematic OEM. In mid-2005 GM came out with an aluminum framed LIM gasket that is considered the one that won't fail. Fel-Pro doesn't have it. Toyota may have the best gasket. Might be harder to get a good gasket judgement on the 7M-GE versus the 3800 Series II due to difference in the pool of experience though. Rebuild versus doing the head gasket gets called mostly by the pain of doing the head gasket and how bad you want the car and how long you figure to have it. If it's a fairly easy job you just might do the HG. Keep in mind how long the local guy will be available and working too. Nobody is forever. I've had cars that I wouldn't think twice about spending $3-4k putting in a brand new long block. But usually body rust makes the whole deal a bad one. Did it once though, and no regrets. Consider how you'll feel if your cost/labor doing the HG gets paid back a few months later with a rod knock. Happened to me when I did heads in the high mile 350 I had in my van. Just a waste of time/money. Once you open an engine you can find the work expanding. For example on the 350 I had a burned valve. Well, when the heads are off you really want to replace those 16 old lifters, right? Whoa, there's quite a bit of carbon on those piston tops and I see a little scoring on the cylinder walls. Maybe I should do the lower end. You get the picture. And really scour info sources before you start. To cut this off and maybe provide something useful I'm starting a new thread to discuss this a bit in the tech and GM groups. Shop manual versus net know-how. --Vic
From: clare on 8 Jun 2010 15:16 On Tue, 08 Jun 2010 10:19:24 -0500, Vic Smith <thismailautodeleted(a)comcast.net> wrote: >On Mon, 07 Jun 2010 17:54:23 -0400, Hachiroku ???? <Trueno(a)e86.GTS> >wrote: > >>It has been recommended (RE: my '88 Supra with an apparent BHG...) >>that I PARK THE CAR AND PULL THE HEAD! >> >>So, this I will do. Given that once I pull the head the HG is toast even >>if it's not blown, I obviously have to buy a new one. >> >>I have seen them as low as $17; also $26, with $58 being the usual on-line >>price. Beck-Arnley wants ~$60, some places advertise Fel-Pro at $58, or >>$17, or $26. My band's guitar player said yesterday, "Eh, $12, big deal". >>I told him about the prices I was finding. >> >>Toyota's list is $115; the best on-line price I have found is $85 and the >>locval dealer will match that. >> >>I'm kinda answering my own question here. The 7M-GE has a nasty habit of >>blowing HGs, and IIRC the HG was replaced on this car a year before I >>bought it. he total cost of the job was a shade under $1,000. When I had >>the valve covers off to replace the gaskets I checked the torque on the >>head bolts and they were above 68 ft/lbs; the original spec was 58 ft/lbs >>and a Toyota TSB about BHGs said 72 ft/lbs (IIRC) was recommended, so >>whoever did the job knew they had to use the revised spec. I'm betting >>they used and off-the-rack gasket and maybe mostly responsible for why I >>have to do it again. >> >>So, do I go aftermarket, save a few bucks and perhaps have to do it all >>again in 7 years or so? The car is now 22 years old. If I do have to do >>the HG again it will be ~30 years old; it's not in *bad* shape, but it's >>not a Collector's Item, either. >> >>Or, do I spend the $85 and get the Real Deal and hope things are good >>enough to get another 80,000 miles out of it (it has ~220,000 now...)? >> >>The thing I SHOULD do, obviously, is pull the engine and have the whole >>thing refreshed. A local engine guy, who's one of the best in the country >>quoted me $2200 for complete bottom end refurb, and I know when I get it >>back it will be one of the best 7M-GEs in the country. >> > >If there's a Supra forum(s), check that out for gasket >recommendations. >It's not a given the Fel-Pro will have the best gasket. >For the GM 3800 Series II lower intakes the Fel-Pro was said to be >identical to the problematic OEM. >In mid-2005 GM came out with an aluminum framed LIM gasket that is >considered the one that won't fail. Fel-Pro doesn't have it. >Toyota may have the best gasket. Might be harder to get a good gasket >judgement on the 7M-GE versus the 3800 Series II due to difference in >the pool of experience though. >Rebuild versus doing the head gasket gets called mostly by the pain of >doing the head gasket and how bad you want the car and how long you >figure to have it. >If it's a fairly easy job you just might do the HG. >Keep in mind how long the local guy will be available and working too. >Nobody is forever. >I've had cars that I wouldn't think twice about spending $3-4k putting >in a brand new long block. But usually body rust makes the whole deal >a bad one. Did it once though, and no regrets. >Consider how you'll feel if your cost/labor doing the HG gets paid >back a few months later with a rod knock. >Happened to me when I did heads in the high mile 350 I had in my van. >Just a waste of time/money. >Once you open an engine you can find the work expanding. >For example on the 350 I had a burned valve. Well, when the heads are >off you really want to replace those 16 old lifters, right? >Whoa, there's quite a bit of carbon on those piston tops and I see a >little scoring on the cylinder walls. Maybe I should do the lower >end. You get the picture. >And really scour info sources before you start. >To cut this off and maybe provide something useful I'm starting a new >thread to discuss this a bit in the tech and GM groups. Shop manual >versus net know-how. > >--Vic Pull the head, clean things up, and if it looks too bad you just made pulling the engine easier.
From: Mike Hunter on 8 Jun 2010 15:36
Toyota, like GM and all of the other auto manufactures, were victims of the governments banning asbestos without allowing the gasket manufacturers time to develop proper replacement materials "Vic Smith" <thismailautodeleted(a)comcast.net> wrote in message news:qiks0693euu1s0opf6fhfemgpjoaaikrgn(a)4ax.com... > On Mon, 07 Jun 2010 17:54:23 -0400, Hachiroku ???? <Trueno(a)e86.GTS> > wrote: > >>It has been recommended (RE: my '88 Supra with an apparent BHG...) >>that I PARK THE CAR AND PULL THE HEAD! >> > > If there's a Supra forum(s), check that out for gasket > recommendations. > It's not a given the Fel-Pro will have the best gasket. > For the GM 3800 Series II lower intakes the Fel-Pro was said to be > identical to the problematic OEM. > In mid-2005 GM came out with an aluminum framed LIM gasket that is > considered the one that won't fail. Fel-Pro doesn't have it. > Toyota may have the best gasket. Might be harder to get a good gasket > judgement on the 7M-GE versus the 3800 Series II due to difference in > the pool of experience though. > Rebuild versus doing the head gasket gets called mostly by the pain of > doing the head gasket and how bad you want the car and how long you > figure to have it. > If it's a fairly easy job you just might do the HG. > Keep in mind how long the local guy will be available and working too. > Nobody is forever. > I've had cars that I wouldn't think twice about spending $3-4k putting > in a brand new long block. But usually body rust makes the whole deal > a bad one. Did it once though, and no regrets. > Consider how you'll feel if your cost/labor doing the HG gets paid > back a few months later with a rod knock. > Happened to me when I did heads in the high mile 350 I had in my van. > Just a waste of time/money. > Once you open an engine you can find the work expanding. > For example on the 350 I had a burned valve. Well, when the heads are > off you really want to replace those 16 old lifters, right? > Whoa, there's quite a bit of carbon on those piston tops and I see a > little scoring on the cylinder walls. Maybe I should do the lower > end. You get the picture. > And really scour info sources before you start. > To cut this off and maybe provide something useful I'm starting a new > thread to discuss this a bit in the tech and GM groups. Shop manual > versus net know-how. > > --Vic |