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From: aarcuda69062 on 24 Dec 2009 18:09
In article <Xns9CEA9C2EC2259tegger(a)208.90.168.18>,
Tegger <invalid(a)invalid.inv> wrote:

> aarcuda69062 <nonelson(a)sbcglobal.net> wrote in
> news:nonelson-3380F4.09100623122009(a)news.eternal-september.org:
>
> > In article <Xns9CEA60C55C34Ftegger(a)208.90.168.18>,
> > Tegger <invalid(a)invalid.inv> wrote:
> >
>
> >>
> >> What you seem to be saying is that, unless the home user is willing
> >> to buy the $1,345 tool, invest thousands more dollars and hundreds of
> >> hours on training, and uses the resulting knowledge often enough that
> >> he doesn't forget it, there's no point in him even attempting
> >> engine-control diagnostics and repair on a modern car.
> >
> > Egg-zactly.
> >
> > They don't know what they don't know.
>
>
>
> That damn well sucks, I say.

Why does it suck?
The knowledge and equipment are not restricted, any limitations are self
imposed.

> Seems like pretty much all the home grease monkey can do is buy a quality
> vehicle, and then maintain it by-the-book or better, preferably with OEM
> parts and materials.

If that is all one aspires to be...
From: aarcuda69062 on 24 Dec 2009 18:19
In article <hh0a02$ekb$1(a)news.eternal-september.org>,
"Jeff Strickland" <crwlrjeff(a)yahoo.com> wrote:

> "Tegger" <invalid(a)invalid.inv> wrote in message
> news:Xns9CEA9C2EC2259tegger(a)208.90.168.18...
> > aarcuda69062 <nonelson(a)sbcglobal.net> wrote in
> > news:nonelson-3380F4.09100623122009(a)news.eternal-september.org:
> >
> >> In article <Xns9CEA60C55C34Ftegger(a)208.90.168.18>,
> >> Tegger <invalid(a)invalid.inv> wrote:
> >>
> >
> >>>
> >>> What you seem to be saying is that, unless the home user is willing
> >>> to buy the $1,345 tool, invest thousands more dollars and hundreds of
> >>> hours on training, and uses the resulting knowledge often enough that
> >>> he doesn't forget it, there's no point in him even attempting
> >>> engine-control diagnostics and repair on a modern car.
> >>
> >> Egg-zactly.
> >>
> >> They don't know what they don't know.
> >
> >
> >
> > That damn well sucks, I say.
> >
> > Seems like pretty much all the home grease monkey can do is buy a quality
> > vehicle, and then maintain it by-the-book or better, preferably with OEM
> > parts and materials.
> >
> >
>
> I believe aarcuda69062 is 100% absolutely and undeniably wrong.
>
> I think the vast majority of service work that is needed can be done by a
> person at home with a reasonably strong assortment of wrenches and an
> understanding of which end to use.

A scan tool is not required to perform "service work."

Your altered premise does not address the OPs original question, key
points of which are "best" and "scan tool." My answer(s) are 100%
correct. The best scan tool for repairing a Toyota are those offered by
Toyota.
From: Jeff Strickland on 24 Dec 2009 20:31

"aarcuda69062" <nonelson(a)sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:nonelson-C19C2C.17194224122009(a)news.eternal-september.org...
> In article <hh0a02$ekb$1(a)news.eternal-september.org>,
> "Jeff Strickland" <crwlrjeff(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> "Tegger" <invalid(a)invalid.inv> wrote in message
>> news:Xns9CEA9C2EC2259tegger(a)208.90.168.18...
>> > aarcuda69062 <nonelson(a)sbcglobal.net> wrote in
>> > news:nonelson-3380F4.09100623122009(a)news.eternal-september.org:
>> >
>> >> In article <Xns9CEA60C55C34Ftegger(a)208.90.168.18>,
>> >> Tegger <invalid(a)invalid.inv> wrote:
>> >>
>> >
>> >>>
>> >>> What you seem to be saying is that, unless the home user is willing
>> >>> to buy the $1,345 tool, invest thousands more dollars and hundreds of
>> >>> hours on training, and uses the resulting knowledge often enough that
>> >>> he doesn't forget it, there's no point in him even attempting
>> >>> engine-control diagnostics and repair on a modern car.
>> >>
>> >> Egg-zactly.
>> >>
>> >> They don't know what they don't know.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > That damn well sucks, I say.
>> >
>> > Seems like pretty much all the home grease monkey can do is buy a
>> > quality
>> > vehicle, and then maintain it by-the-book or better, preferably with
>> > OEM
>> > parts and materials.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> I believe aarcuda69062 is 100% absolutely and undeniably wrong.
>>
>> I think the vast majority of service work that is needed can be done by a
>> person at home with a reasonably strong assortment of wrenches and an
>> understanding of which end to use.
>
> A scan tool is not required to perform "service work."
>

It's required to service some parts of the car that need service because
they tell the tool that they don't work right and service to those parts can
make the system work right again. So, a scan tool is most certainly needed
to perform service work. You might define "service work" differently, such
as changing oil or a light bulb, and replacing an O2 Sensor as a repair as
opposed to service. I define any time one has a car that is not working
properly as needing service. So, in my world a scan tool is an invaluable
tool for the conduct of service work.



> Your altered premise does not address the OPs original question, key
> points of which are "best" and "scan tool." My answer(s) are 100%
> correct. The best scan tool for repairing a Toyota are those offered by
> Toyota.

And I disagree with that. Big deal. I think that anybody is capable of fully
75% of the work that is routinely needed on an aotomobile. Can they actually
do the work? Maybe not, but the work that they can't do isn't difficult, it
only exceeds their horizon. I have a friend, a woman, that I've known for
30-ish years. She can't fix her car by herself, but when I work on her car
and she helps, she actually gets what is happening, and why. If she had
spent more time under the hood as a kid -- as my kids did -- then she could
have saved thousands of dollars over the years paying for service that she
has all of the abilities to do herself. Period. The fact that she might not
_want_ to work on her own car does not mean that she's not able to. Most
people that do work on the car are able to, they just don't want to. That's
my story and I'm sticking to it.

As I said earlier, there are some jobs that take too many specialized tools
to do at home to make the work cost-effective, and some jobs that are far
too technical to do at home. For example, rebuilding an automatic
transmission is a job that would not work out well at home due to the vast
array of specialized tools.

But I'm really talking about a engine miss that comes up on the scan tool as
a bad spark plug or coil, this is an easy job to do at home and without a
scan tool, one would have trouble determining which is the culprit. The scan
tool makes this very easy, and my friend -- the woman -- could do this with
ease. I maintain that there are many jobs on a car that the home mechanic
could do if he had a scan tool. Most of the people in this group fall into
that category, and all of the regular contributors fit the profile.

As for the best scan tool, I talked about that at length in another post.





From: aarcuda69062 on 25 Dec 2009 14:20
In article <hh308l$qdj$1(a)news.eternal-september.org>,
"Jeff Strickland" <crwlrjeff(a)yahoo.com> wrote:

> I don't know why you're going off the deep end here, especially given the
> original post and the direction of a few replies. The OP wants to buy a scan
> tool, and your advice is not to.

Never said anything of the sort, matter of fact, I posted two separate
links to the factory recommended tool(s) which somehow according to you
are not good enough.

> What's up with that?

Reading comprehension on your part.
From: Jeff Strickland on 25 Dec 2009 16:20

"aarcuda69062" <nonelson(a)sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:nonelson-4C4285.13202125122009(a)news.eternal-september.org...
> In article <hh308l$qdj$1(a)news.eternal-september.org>,
> "Jeff Strickland" <crwlrjeff(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I don't know why you're going off the deep end here, especially given the
>> original post and the direction of a few replies. The OP wants to buy a
>> scan
>> tool, and your advice is not to.
>
> Never said anything of the sort, matter of fact, I posted two separate
> links to the factory recommended tool(s) which somehow according to you
> are not good enough.
>
>> What's up with that?
>
> Reading comprehension on your part.

You posted links to stuff that costs in excess of $1000. Unless you make a
living using stuff like that, you don't need it. The OP asked for a scan
tool, the scan tool he can buy that will help him with over 90% of the stuff
he can repair in the first place can be found for under $150.

I maintain that most of the service that a car needs can typically be done
at home. The scan tool to facilitate the work will run to about $150.



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