Toyota issued at least 3 Drive-by-Wires TSBs earlier for 2002-03 Camrys
in [Toyota Trucks]
|
Prev: Times: Experts say throttles to blame for sudden acceleration
Next: Toyota issued at least 3 Drive-by-Wires TSBs earlier for 2002-03 Camrys
From: Mike Hunter on 28 Nov 2009 21:28 The question should be it seems, what new vehicle on the market today does NOT use FBW technology? "in2dadark" <in2dadark(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message news:28032db1-874e-48df-8f34-dfc51f6997cb(a)r5g2000yqb.googlegroups.com... On Nov 28, 10:58 am, Vic Smith <thismailautodele...(a)comcast.net> wrote: > On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 09:17:33 -0600, Don Stauffer > > > > > > <stauf...(a)usfamily.net> wrote: > >john wrote: > >> This is getting interesting. There were engine surge problems from the > >> beginning of drive-by-wires that Toyota issued TSBs to fix. That was > >> unexpected engine surges between 38-42 MPH on light throttle input: > > >> "Although Toyota says it knows of no electronic defects that would > >> cause a vehicle to surge out of control, it has issued at least three > >> technical service bulletins to its dealers warning of problems with > >> the new electronic throttles in the 2002 and 2003 Camry. > > >I wonder if they consider software an electronic defect. If the computer > >operating system allows multi-tasking, and if they use a lot of > >conditional branching, it is possible to write software that cannot be > >deterministically verified, only statistically. Aircraft flight control > >software has developed deterministic rules for software. I wonder which > >way the car computers are. I'll bet too that the car computers are not > >redundant. Military aircraft are usually triple redundant, commercial > >stuff quad redundant. Expensive. > > >I have a Prius so this is not just idle curiosity with me. > > The whole idea is a loser to me. Mechanical linkages are well proven. > What about short circuits, bad tracings, etc? > (I know squat about electronics - except they sometimes fail.) > The programming part regarding safety is pretty much a no brainer, as > somebody mentioned - touching the brake always says shut down the > throttle. > But even that is subject to switching pulses and microscopic pathways. > I especially don't like the idea of the ignition switch being disabled > or bypassed. > To think that Murphy's law won't kill somebody is pretty arrogant. > KISS is always the best option where safety is concerned. > A TPS is perfectly adequate to tell the CPU what the foot is doing. > The foot should be in total control. > Putting this electronic junk in to avoid floorpan holes and some > linkage is no different than saving 20 cents per car on that Pinto > gas tank design if people end up dead. > Really sucks when Beta testing is being done at the risk of lives. > Haven't been following this closely, so I may have something wrong. > But I'll be sure to look for a mechanical throttle on my next car. > If that's not available, I better be able to shut down with a > key/switch. Otherwise I'll stick with older cars. > > --Vic- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Not crazy about DBW either. They seem to be installing 'more' hazards in cars instead of eliminating them. I wonder if the Kia forte is DBW..
From: Wayne on 29 Nov 2009 17:58 "Mike Hunter" <Mikehunt2(a)lycos,com> wrote in message news:4b11dc50$0$14195$ce5e7886(a)news-radius.ptd.net... > The question should be it seems, what new vehicle on the market today does > NOT use FBW technology? > > "in2dadark" <in2dadark(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:28032db1-874e-48df-8f34-dfc51f6997cb(a)r5g2000yqb.googlegroups.com... > On Nov 28, 10:58 am, Vic Smith <thismailautodele...(a)comcast.net> > wrote: >> On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 09:17:33 -0600, Don Stauffer >> >> >> >> >> >> <stauf...(a)usfamily.net> wrote: >> >john wrote: >> >> This is getting interesting. There were engine surge problems from the >> >> beginning of drive-by-wires that Toyota issued TSBs to fix. That was >> >> unexpected engine surges between 38-42 MPH on light throttle input: >> >> >> "Although Toyota says it knows of no electronic defects that would >> >> cause a vehicle to surge out of control, it has issued at least three >> >> technical service bulletins to its dealers warning of problems with >> >> the new electronic throttles in the 2002 and 2003 Camry. >> >> >I wonder if they consider software an electronic defect. If the computer >> >operating system allows multi-tasking, and if they use a lot of >> >conditional branching, it is possible to write software that cannot be >> >deterministically verified, only statistically. Aircraft flight control >> >software has developed deterministic rules for software. I wonder which >> >way the car computers are. I'll bet too that the car computers are not >> >redundant. Military aircraft are usually triple redundant, commercial >> >stuff quad redundant. Expensive. >> >> >I have a Prius so this is not just idle curiosity with me. >> >> The whole idea is a loser to me. Mechanical linkages are well proven. >> What about short circuits, bad tracings, etc? >> (I know squat about electronics - except they sometimes fail.) >> The programming part regarding safety is pretty much a no brainer, as >> somebody mentioned - touching the brake always says shut down the >> throttle. >> But even that is subject to switching pulses and microscopic pathways. >> I especially don't like the idea of the ignition switch being disabled >> or bypassed. >> To think that Murphy's law won't kill somebody is pretty arrogant. >> KISS is always the best option where safety is concerned. >> A TPS is perfectly adequate to tell the CPU what the foot is doing. >> The foot should be in total control. >> Putting this electronic junk in to avoid floorpan holes and some >> linkage is no different than saving 20 cents per car on that Pinto >> gas tank design if people end up dead. >> Really sucks when Beta testing is being done at the risk of lives. >> Haven't been following this closely, so I may have something wrong. >> But I'll be sure to look for a mechanical throttle on my next car. >> If that's not available, I better be able to shut down with a >> key/switch. Otherwise I'll stick with older cars. >> >> --Vic- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > Not crazy about DBW either. They seem to be installing 'more' hazards > in cars instead of eliminating them. I wonder if the Kia forte is DBW.. > The mechanical linkages also have problems. On one car, I had a rubber plug come loose in the engine compartment, and wedge into the accelerator linkage. On another car, the cable travel stopped before the accelerator bottomed out. When pushing down hard, I popped the end off the cable, and the cable was spring loaded to full throttle. YMMV.
From: C. E. White on 30 Nov 2009 07:33 "Vic Smith" <thismailautodeleted(a)comcast.net> wrote in message news:64h2h591lc7ildra3k7bmsvrumn21fkip6(a)4ax.com... > The whole idea is a loser to me. Mechanical linkages are well > proven. In my life I've only had two times when a throttle stuck open, in both cases it was for vehicles with well proven mechanical linkages. Ed
From: Mike Hunter on 30 Nov 2009 10:51 WHAT, you were kidding, when you wrote, " When pushing down hard, I popped the end off the cable, and the cable was spring loaded to FULL throttle." right? "Wayne" <mygarbagecan(a)verizon.net> wrote in message news:heuua5$9m6$1(a)news.eternal-september.org... > > "Mike Hunter" <Mikehunt2(a)lycos,com> wrote in message > news:4b11dc50$0$14195$ce5e7886(a)news-radius.ptd.net... >> The question should be it seems, what new vehicle on the market today >> does NOT use FBW technology? >> >> "in2dadark" <in2dadark(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message >> news:28032db1-874e-48df-8f34-dfc51f6997cb(a)r5g2000yqb.googlegroups.com... >> On Nov 28, 10:58 am, Vic Smith <thismailautodele...(a)comcast.net> >> wrote: >>> On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 09:17:33 -0600, Don Stauffer >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> <stauf...(a)usfamily.net> wrote: >>> >john wrote: >>> >> This is getting interesting. There were engine surge problems from >>> >> the >>> >> beginning of drive-by-wires that Toyota issued TSBs to fix. That was >>> >> unexpected engine surges between 38-42 MPH on light throttle input: >>> >>> >> "Although Toyota says it knows of no electronic defects that would >>> >> cause a vehicle to surge out of control, it has issued at least three >>> >> technical service bulletins to its dealers warning of problems with >>> >> the new electronic throttles in the 2002 and 2003 Camry. >>> >>> >I wonder if they consider software an electronic defect. If the >>> >computer >>> >operating system allows multi-tasking, and if they use a lot of >>> >conditional branching, it is possible to write software that cannot be >>> >deterministically verified, only statistically. Aircraft flight control >>> >software has developed deterministic rules for software. I wonder which >>> >way the car computers are. I'll bet too that the car computers are not >>> >redundant. Military aircraft are usually triple redundant, commercial >>> >stuff quad redundant. Expensive. >>> >>> >I have a Prius so this is not just idle curiosity with me. >>> >>> The whole idea is a loser to me. Mechanical linkages are well proven. >>> What about short circuits, bad tracings, etc? >>> (I know squat about electronics - except they sometimes fail.) >>> The programming part regarding safety is pretty much a no brainer, as >>> somebody mentioned - touching the brake always says shut down the >>> throttle. >>> But even that is subject to switching pulses and microscopic pathways. >>> I especially don't like the idea of the ignition switch being disabled >>> or bypassed. >>> To think that Murphy's law won't kill somebody is pretty arrogant. >>> KISS is always the best option where safety is concerned. >>> A TPS is perfectly adequate to tell the CPU what the foot is doing. >>> The foot should be in total control. >>> Putting this electronic junk in to avoid floorpan holes and some >>> linkage is no different than saving 20 cents per car on that Pinto >>> gas tank design if people end up dead. >>> Really sucks when Beta testing is being done at the risk of lives. >>> Haven't been following this closely, so I may have something wrong. >>> But I'll be sure to look for a mechanical throttle on my next car. >>> If that's not available, I better be able to shut down with a >>> key/switch. Otherwise I'll stick with older cars. >>> >>> --Vic- Hide quoted text - >>> >>> - Show quoted text - >> >> Not crazy about DBW either. They seem to be installing 'more' hazards >> in cars instead of eliminating them. I wonder if the Kia forte is DBW.. >> > The mechanical linkages also have problems. On one car, I had a rubber > plug come loose in the engine compartment, and wedge into the accelerator > linkage. On another car, the cable travel stopped before the accelerator > bottomed out. When pushing down hard, I popped the end off the cable, and > the cable was spring loaded to full throttle. YMMV. >
From: Mike Hunter on 30 Nov 2009 10:53
Those were engines with carburetors, right. "C. E. White" <cewhite3(a)mindspring.com> wrote in message news:hf0eaf$5mb$1(a)news.eternal-september.org... > > "Vic Smith" <thismailautodeleted(a)comcast.net> wrote in message > news:64h2h591lc7ildra3k7bmsvrumn21fkip6(a)4ax.com... > >> The whole idea is a loser to me. Mechanical linkages are well proven. > > In my life I've only had two times when a throttle stuck open, in both > cases it was for vehicles with well proven mechanical linkages. > > Ed > |