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From: jim beam on 26 Feb 2010 22:47
On 02/26/2010 04:33 PM, C. E. White wrote:
>
> "jim beam" <me(a)privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:jo6dnTjXGtg_-xrWnZ2dnUVZ_qhi4p2d(a)speakeasy.net...
>> On 02/25/2010 09:46 PM, C. E. White wrote:
>>> Actual Edmunds article is at:
>>>
>>> http://www.edmunds.com/help/about/press/161706/article.html
>>>
>>> "Toyota Motor Corporation models - Toyota Camry (290 complaints), Toyota
>>> Tacoma (184 complaints) and Lexus ES 350 (100 complaints) - rank 1, 2
>>> and 3, respectively, for most complaints by model, in Edmunds.com's
>>> analysis, which ranks the vehicles on the raw number of complaints, not
>>> on a sales- weighted basis.
>>> "Nine of the top 12 models with the most complaints of unintended
>>> acceleration are made by Toyota. In addition to the Camry, Tacoma and ES
>>> 350, the other Toyota models among the top dozen are: Toyota Prius, No.
>>> 5 with 85 complaints; Toyota Avalon, No. 6 with 79 complaints; Toyota
>>> Tundra, No. 7 with 66 complaints; Toyota Corolla, No. 8 with 55
>>> complaints; Toyota Highlander, No. 11 with 42 complaints; and Toyota
>>> RAV4, No. 12 with 41 complaints.
>>>
>>> T"he top 12 list is rounded out by two Fords: Ford F-150 in the No. 4
>>> position with 86 complaints and Ford Mustang, which was No. 9 with 53
>>> complaints. Chrysler's Jeep Grand Cherokee was No. 10 with 46
>>> complaints"
>>>
>>> Ed
>>>
>>
>> complaint != substantiated problem ed. of course, as a paid shill,
>> such a fact might be inconvenient to your campaign, but it's the truth
>> nevertheless.
>
> Hundreds of complaint about a particualr concern deserves a reasonable
> investigation.

forgive me ed, before when you were talking about "investigation" i
thought you meant an /examination/ of the facts. now i understand - you
simply mean /fabrication/ of the facts given that there's nothing
actually available to support your astroturfing. my mistake.


> Over the past ten years Toyota has more uninitended
> acceleration complinats that the next 5 largest automakers combined. You
> think that should be ignored?

no, i think astroturfers filing frivolous complaints should be ignored.
accusation != conviction.


>
> Ed


--
nomina rutrum rutrum
From: jim beam on 26 Feb 2010 22:48
On 02/26/2010 04:31 PM, C. E. White wrote:
>
> "jim beam" <me(a)privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:jo6dnTnXGtje-xrWnZ2dnUVZ_qidnZ2d(a)speakeasy.net...
>
>> 12 in /how/ many million driver miles?
>
> 12? There are hundreds (thousands?) of complaints of unintended
> acceleration over the last 10 years. Did you read any of the relevant
> articles? See http://www.edmunds.com/help/about/press/161706/article.html .

1. that is allegation, not proven fact. if you weren't a paid shill,
you'd have realized that by now.
2. ed, there are literally thousands of millions of driver miles on
these vehicles every single year. if you understood logic, statistics
or weren't being paid to astroturf, you'd admit the reality - no
evidence = no problem.


>
>>> http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2010/02/timeline-of-toyota-nhtsa-acceleration-investigations-sua.html
>>>
>>
>> you want to read my blog ed?
>
> Is it any more coherent that the ranting you post here?

no, it's an expose of astroturfers like you.


>
> Ed


--
nomina rutrum rutrum
From: jim beam on 26 Feb 2010 22:49
On 02/26/2010 10:52 AM, jg9100(a)gmail.com wrote:
> On Feb 25, 10:31�pm, "C. E. White"<cewhite3rem...(a)mindspring.com>
> wrote:
>> Toyota gets more runaway complaints than rivals, study says
>> Neil Roland
>> Automotive News -- February 25, 2010 - 2:35 pm ET
>>
>> WASHINGTON -- Toyota Motor Corp. vehicles have been the focus of more
>> unintended acceleration complaints in the United States than any other major
>> automaker in the past five years, a new study shows.
>>
>> Toyota was the target of 532 consumer complaints involving 2005 model year
>> vehicles and later, according to National Highway Traffic Safety
>> Administration data tallied by Edmunds.com. That's 57 percent more than the
>> 339 complaints involving vehicles from Ford Motor Co., which was No. 2.
>>
>> The findings challenge Toyota's contention that it has been unfairly singled
>> out on an issue that affects the entire industry. Toyota executives have
>> trumpeted other Edmunds.com studies to demonstrate that its overall safety
>> record is superior to most rivals.
>>
>> The Edmunds.com study tracked unintended acceleration complaints received by
>> NHTSA through Sept. 30, 2009. That was the day Toyota, responding to a fatal
>> accident in California a month earlier, announced plans to recall 3.8
>> million U.S. Toyota and Lexus models to fix floor mats that may snag gas
>> pedals.
>>
>> On a complaints-per-sale basis, Toyota remained the leader by almost the
>> same margin. It had 4.81 complaints per 100,000 U.S. vehicles sold -- 54
>> percent more than Ford's 3.12. Chrysler (1.72), Honda (1.26), Nissan (1.07)
>> and GM (0.81) followed, Edmunds.com said.
>>
>> Congressional and federal investigations of Toyota's safety record are
>> focused on unintended acceleration. Such incidents have been linked to at
>> least five U.S. deaths in Toyota vehicles, with 29 other fatality reports
>> being examined by NHTSA.
>>
>> Consumers have filed more than 2,500 unintended acceleration complaints to
>> Toyota over the past decade, the Safety Research& Strategies consulting
>> firm has said.
>>
>> Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons responded to the Edmunds.com tally by saying
>> unintended acceleration can be caused by many factors and that nearly all
>> major automakers have been the focus of complaints.
>>
>> Toyota Division chief Bob Carter said at the National Automobile Dealers
>> Association convention this month that Edmunds.com found 16 automakers
>> ranked worse than Toyota in terms of general complaints per vehicle sold
>> from 2001 through Feb. 3, 2010.
>>
>> Read more:http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100225/OEM/10022...
>
> The bottom line here is Toyota most likely has a software design issue
> with their throttle control.

"most likely"??? even though there are literally billions of driver
miles on these vehicles, and there's still no evidence? did you ever
study logic?


> They will deny that to the bone, because
> they can't fix it. It is too small of sample size to get an accurate
> description of the problem.

if the sample size is zero, is there still a problem?


> So they choose to stonewall everyone with
> carpet and pedal fixes, hoping they can show some positive result.
> It's too bad for their customers that they can't implement the brake
> pedal override so the few cars that do this, the owner could get
> control back.

1. there already is an hydraulic override.
2. that won't stop some idiot that pressing on the wrong pedal.


> I guess that introducing a a software fix would take too
> much testing and could risk introducing other issues. Otherwise they
> could just flash the engine controller and be done with it. The older
> engine controller may not have enough memory to do this anyway so they
> may have to replace them.

you think it's a software issue, but you evidently don't know about the
systems used. excellent reasoning!


> What a mess.
> They sound a lot like GM.

no dude, this bullshit is being /created/ by gm. or rather, the new
"owners" of gm.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum
From: Clive on 27 Feb 2010 10:19
In message <9qKdnRsKVq-I8hXWnZ2dnUVZ_t0AAAAA(a)earthlink.com>, C. E. White
<cewhite3remove(a)mindspring.com> writes
>12? There are hundreds (thousands?) of complaints of unintended
>acceleration over the last 10 years. Did you read any of the relevant
>articles? See
>http://www.edmunds.com/help/about/press/161706/article.html .
Unless you know the total number of each in sales as well as reported
fault, then you're not in a position to make a statistical assumption,
indeed, the fault to item ratio might be so low as to move it into the
noise spectrum.
--
Clive

From: jim beam on 27 Feb 2010 10:50
On 02/26/2010 03:45 AM, Clive wrote:
> In message
> <7a6816fc-c8ac-454b-a495-26a697101267(a)k6g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
> larry moe 'n curly <larrymoencurly(a)my-deja.com> writes
>> I read something similar in a recent issue of AutoWeek -- Toyota's
>> rate of complaint for unintended acceleration was 1 in 50,000, while
>> GM's was 1 in 500,000.
> A assume it has something to do with American manufacturing, because
> Europe has almost twice the number of people yet only four reported
> accidents and no deaths.

a good offense is a good defense. in a nation where a manufacturer of a
crappy product won't compete on quality, simply try to trash the
competition, and where any fool can file a complaint or a lawsuit,
you're bound to see lots of baseless allegation like this.

--
nomina rutrum rutrum
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