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From: Bill Yanaire, ESQ on 1 Mar 2010 11:26
Kinda like you. You come off as clueless also.
From: Tegger on 1 Mar 2010 19:32
"C. E. White" <cewhite3remove(a)mindspring.com> wrote in
news:6a2dnSHaFsP3bRfWnZ2dnUVZ_t2dnZ2d(a)earthlink.com:

>
> "jim beam" <me(a)privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:QKydnVzcOeOtpBTWnZ2dnUVZ_t8AAAAA(a)speakeasy.net...
>
>>> ALL automakers have SUA incidents. In fact, from 2004 to 2009,
>>> Ford had FAR MORE of them than Toyota did.
>>> See the small graph part way down this page:
>>> <http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100014240527487035102045750855313837
>>> 17288.html>
>
> The information at Consumer Reports is more comprehensive, but still
> selective.
>
> I am not sure how the WSJ is counting Sudden Acceleration incidents. I
> assume they are using the NHTSA database, but it doesn't actually have
> a category called "Sudden Acceleration." There are multiple categories
> related to Vehicle Speed Control (the base category plus CRUISE
> CONTROL, ACCELERATOR PEDAL, CRUISE CONTROL, LINKAGE, CABLE, LEVER,
> etc.). I am guessing they are just counting the total number of
> complaints over a time period.




That is _exactly_ what they are doing. That's the only way of doing ANY
sort of comparison, since nobody is sorting any of the Toyota numbers in
any way at all.

Apples-to-apples means raw, unsorted "complaint" numbers for everybody, not
raw for Toyota and sorted for Ford.

If you read the WSJ article I referenced, you'll see a quote from an NHTSA
official who says that _once you ignore the sticky cruise controls_, Ford
actually has pretty good numbers.

Part of the point I've been trying to make all along is that raw
"complaint" numbers are just about meaningless. ANYBODY can make a
"complaint" to NHTSA. NHTSA is so used to receiving large numbers of
unfounded annoyance-type complaints that, as a matter of course, they
ignore anything below 1,000 complaints, and may not even act until the
number is well over 2,000.


--
Tegger

From: C. E. White on 2 Mar 2010 19:10
I saw a New York Times article in the local paper today that was very
similar to my take on the UA complaints in the NHTSA database. But, the NYT
researchers had more time to look at the actual text of the complaints and
came up with a more through analysis, Here is some of what the article said
(see
http://www.newsobserver.com/2010/03/02/365484/data-show-crash-trouble-in-more.html?storylink=misearch )
:

"Of the 12,700 National Highway Traffic Safety Administration consumer
complaints analyzed by The Times, the Ford Motor Co. had the most, about
3,500.

"Toyota ranked second, with about 3,000 complaints, but those were linked to
far more accidents - 1,000, compared to 450 crashes for Ford. And compared
to other manufacturers, Toyota had the most speed-control crash complaints
per vehicle sold.
"Asked about The Times' findings, a Toyota spokesman said Monday that
pre-2007 Camrys had been investigated and cleared of defects in three
previous inquiries by the safety agency. "At the conclusion of these
investigations, no specific evidence of a trend regarding safety issues was
found," said Brian Lyons, the spokesman.

"Lyons said that the 2002 and 2003 Camrys with six-cylinder engines had also
been subject to two corporate service actions aimed at addressing momentary
surges in acceleration. He said the changes were "not issued to resolve any
computer software or electronic throttle control concerns."

"A separate examination by The Times of Transport Ministry records in Japan
revealed a similar finding. In reports since 2001, Toyota vehicles have been
cited with a greater frequency in complaints of sudden acceleration than
those of other major carmakers.

"Suspect electronics

"Toyota has blamed gas pedals that can stick and bulky floor mats for
unexplained acceleration in its recalled vehicles.

"Camrys sold before 2007 in the United States, and almost all Toyotas sold
in Japan, use a different pedal design and different floor mats. So Toyota
has said that there is no need to recall those cars.

"Records suggesting that these Camrys and Japanese Toyotas have sudden
acceleration problems have raised questions about whether there might be
another explanation, including the possibility that the cars' electronic
systems malfunction, resulting in unexpected acceleration.

"Toyota's chief executive, Akio Toyoda, testified before a congressional
panel last week that he was "absolutely confident" there was no problem with
Toyota's electronics.

""Tests have been repeated," he said. "However, no malfunction or problems
were identified."

"But transportation officials in the United States said in interviews that
they were reviewing whether to expand their investigations of Toyota to
include pre-2007 Camrys."

-------------

I also heard a CBS news report that claimed Toyota UA concerns had been
linked to 54 deaths. No explanation was provided, but they showed pictures
of wrecked Camry as part of the ...hmmm..."report."

As I have said before, I do think Toyota has a problem. But I think Congress
is not grilling the right group. They should be asking NHTSA for answers.
NHTSA is the government organization responsible for automobile safety. If
there is a problem with Toyota automobiles, NHTSA should be called to
explain why they did not take the warnings seriously 3 years ago.

I also think, as in past media frenzies, the media is over dramatizing the
problem.

Ed


"C. E. White" <cewhite3remove(a)mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:6a2dnSHaFsP3bRfWnZ2dnUVZ_t2dnZ2d(a)earthlink.com...
>
> "jim beam" <me(a)privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:QKydnVzcOeOtpBTWnZ2dnUVZ_t8AAAAA(a)speakeasy.net...
>
>>> ALL automakers have SUA incidents. In fact, from 2004 to 2009,
>>> Ford had FAR MORE of them than Toyota did.
>>> See the small graph part way down this page:
>>> <http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703510204575085531383717288.html>
>
> The information at Consumer Reports is more comprehensive, but still
> selective.
>
> I am not sure how the WSJ is counting Sudden Acceleration incidents. I
> assume they are using the NHTSA database, but it doesn't actually have a
> category called "Sudden Acceleration." There are multiple categories
> related to Vehicle Speed Control (the base category plus CRUISE CONTROL,
> ACCELERATOR PEDAL, CRUISE CONTROL, LINKAGE, CABLE, LEVER, etc.). I am
> guessing they are just counting the total number of complaints over a time
> period. I can do that but I cannot duplicate their numbers, or even come
> close. If I search on the term "sudden acceleration" in the complaint
> description field, I only get a total of 580 complaints in total against
> all manufacturers for the 2004 to 2009 period. I can do other searches,
> but none match the WSJ numbers.
>
> You can muddy the water by picking a particular year and which components
> you feel are involved.
>
> For vehicles model years 2000 to 2010, there are 14,040 Vehicle Speed
> Control Complaints of all types (including Cruise Control Complaints).
>
> 3461 of these were against Toyotas Products (Toyota, Lexus, Scion)
> 1882 of these were against General Motors Products
> 3659 of these were against Ford Motor Company Products
> 1139 were against Chrysler Products
> 393 were against Nissan Products
> 636 were against Honda Products
>
> So based on this you'd have to say Ford deserves a lot of scrutiny, which
> they have gotten. They were trashed about Cruise Control related problems
> for multiple years. Remember I said I included cruise control complaints
> in the total. If I don't include cruise control complaints..
>
> 3347 of these were against Toyotas Products (Toyota, Lexus, Scion)
> 1656 of these were against General Motors Products
> 2933 of these were against Ford Motor Company Products
> 998 were against Chrysler Products
> 366 were against Nissan Products
> 593 were against Honda Products
>
> So since the 2000 Model year, Ford and Toyota have a speed control
> problems not related to the cruise control of the similar magnitudes. Ford
> has fewer total complaints (for 2000-2010 in total), and they probably
> sold a few more cars over the 11 years as well. So I think it would be
> fair to say they had slightly less of a problem that Toyota for the entire
> 11 year period in total.
>
> BUT, How about if you pick the last 4 model years (2007-2010). 2007 is
> when the Toyota problems allegedly began:
>
> 1330 of these were against Toyotas Products (Toyota, Lexus, Scion)
> 124 of these were against General Motors Products
> 180 of these were against Ford Motor Company Products
> 108 were against Chrysler Products
> 39 were against Nissan Products
> 75 were against Honda Products
>
> So, while you can certainly see that Ford had a problem in the past, by
> 2007 they had corrected it. Toyota's problem just began when everyone
> else's were ending.
>
> The data I used is freely available to anyone, so feel free to check for
> yourself.

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