Prev: Lawmaker: Toyota withheld crash lawsuit evidence
Next: How can you survive your credit cards?
From: jim on 27 Feb 2010 11:45


Tegger wrote:

>
> Yeah. Really. It's simple pedal misapplication, just like always.
>

That may be. Let's pretend for the moment that is the entire
explanation for all the sudden unintended acceleration injuries or
deaths.

In my experience pedal misapplication is usually the result of poor
design. I certainly have experienced stepping on the brake and gas at
the same time or missing the brake completely on some cars that i
haven't driven before. Some cars this is practically impossible to do
and some have a tendency to make it much easier to do. This has ever
been a serious problem for me because it immediately registers what the
problem is an to is easy to compensate and avoid the problem (this is
something you need to learn extremely quickly). But it is easy to see
how someone who is clueless as to the mechanics would become confused
and could respond badly - for instance pressing down harder when they
think they are pressing the brake but are really pressing the
accelerator.

Applying the brakes is something that is done by feel (your looking at
the road not at your feet). And the issue of misapplication of the brake
pedal has been a design issue in the auto industry for at least 25
years, ever since the audi complaints of sudden acceleration. Audi
always blamed the drivers for not understanding how Audi's worked. And
the NHTSA after much investigation agreed that was the best explanation.
So there is really no question the problem is related to design and
any auto maker who now comes along with hat in hand saying they had no
idea misapplication of the brake by the driver could be a problem with
their cars is either incredibly incompetent or just lying.

This is not to say its not the drivers who are at fault if they press
the wrong pedal. For the driver their incompetence has its own reward.
But the same can be said for car makers.

-jim
From: Ashton Crusher on 27 Feb 2010 17:24
On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 12:30:32 +0000 (UTC), Tegger <invalid(a)invalid.inv>
wrote:

>john <johngdole(a)hotmail.com> wrote in
>news:d0196b30-7936-47ec-aec3-5d51abec9d1c(a)m27g2000prl.googlegroups.com:
>
>> "Akio Toyoda's story doesn't add up.
>>
>> The president of Toyota Motor Corp., the centrally controlled behemoth
>> founded 73 years ago by his grandfather, told a congressional
>> committee Wednesday that he didn't know about mounting sudden-
>> acceleration complaints with Toyota vehicles until late last year.
>
>
>ALL automakers have SUA incidents. In fact, from 2004 to 2009,
>Ford had FAR MORE of them than Toyota did.
>See the small graph part way down this page:
><http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703510204575085531383717288.html>
>
>How fast did Ford react to those sticking cruise-controls?
>Not too quickly, I see...
><http://www.google.com/#hl=en&safe=off&q=ford+%22cruise+control%22+sticking+recall&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=ford+%22cruise+control%22+sticking+recall&fp=c26c79a56c95bda8>
>
>Where was your righteous indignation then, "john"?
>


The graph fails to differentiate between the causes and solutions.
Many of the Ford complaints would be expected to be related to the
cruise control issues and in many/most of those cases stepping on the
brake disengaged the cruise and allowed teh vehicle to be brought to a
normal stop. That has not been the case with the latest Toyota
problems that have been making the news. It's the same problem as
when people make a big deal over the JD power reliability ratings,
they don't differentiate between a $3 warranty issue and a $3000 one.


>No company is going to react until they see that there really
>is a problem resulting in issues over and above what is "normal".
>And certainly nobody's going to bug a company's President with
>mundane technical issues.
>
>
>
>>
>> He also didn't know the substance of a corporate briefing paper
>> prepared in July that touted $100 million in savings on recalls,
>> warned about sudden acceleration complaints in Toyota and Lexus models
>> and described a federal bureaucracy that is not "industry-friendly."
>
>
>
>But I thought the NHTSA was in the automakers' pockets! You can't
>have it both ways, buddy.
>
>
>>
>> But now, faced with a global brand and P.R. fiasco, Toyoda knows with
>> "absolute certainty" that the sudden unintended acceleration
>> complaints tied to 34 deaths and the recall of 8.5 million vehicles
>> worldwide cannot be attributed to electronic throttle controls in
>> Toyota and Lexus cars and trucks.
>>
>> Really?"
>
>
>
>Yeah. Really. It's simple pedal misapplication, just like always.
>
>And that Rhonda Smith lady? Her complaint had been rejected by two
>inquiries already, so why is she being given a third kick at
>the cat?
>
>As for 77-year-old Guadalupe Alberto, she fits the standard profile
>of the pedal-misaplication SUA incident:
>- female
>- elderly
>- occasional driver.
>Her family's ghoulish lawyers will try to turn her death into
>cold hard cash, but Toyota is almost certainly blameless.
>
>
>
>
>>
>> From The Detroit News:
>> http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20100225/OPINION03/2250352/1363/AUTO
>> 04/Toyota+executives++testimony+comes+off+as+clueless#ixzz0giWQQzar
>>
>
>
>This is just a hatchet-job written by a union worker who is upset
>that his union pals are losing their Government Motors jobs.
>
>A different view, here:
><http://network.nationalpost.com/NP/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2010/02/24/peter-foster-runaway-legislators.aspx>
From: C. E. White on 28 Feb 2010 17:38

"jim beam" <me(a)privacy.net> wrote in message
news:QKydnVzcOeOtpBTWnZ2dnUVZ_t8AAAAA(a)speakeasy.net...

>> ALL automakers have SUA incidents. In fact, from 2004 to 2009,
>> Ford had FAR MORE of them than Toyota did.
>> See the small graph part way down this page:
>> <http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703510204575085531383717288.html>

The information at Consumer Reports is more comprehensive, but still
selective.

I am not sure how the WSJ is counting Sudden Acceleration incidents. I
assume they are using the NHTSA database, but it doesn't actually have a
category called "Sudden Acceleration." There are multiple categories related
to Vehicle Speed Control (the base category plus CRUISE CONTROL, ACCELERATOR
PEDAL, CRUISE CONTROL, LINKAGE, CABLE, LEVER, etc.). I am guessing they are
just counting the total number of complaints over a time period. I can do
that but I cannot duplicate their numbers, or even come close. If I search
on the term "sudden acceleration" in the complaint description field, I only
get a total of 580 complaints in total against all manufacturers for the
2004 to 2009 period. I can do other searches, but none match the WSJ
numbers.

You can muddy the water by picking a particular year and which components
you feel are involved.

For vehicles model years 2000 to 2010, there are 14,040 Vehicle Speed
Control Complaints of all types (including Cruise Control Complaints).

3461 of these were against Toyotas Products (Toyota, Lexus, Scion)
1882 of these were against General Motors Products
3659 of these were against Ford Motor Company Products
1139 were against Chrysler Products
393 were against Nissan Products
636 were against Honda Products

So based on this you'd have to say Ford deserves a lot of scrutiny, which
they have gotten. They were trashed about Cruise Control related problems
for multiple years. Remember I said I included cruise control complaints in
the total. If I don't include cruise control complaints..

3347 of these were against Toyotas Products (Toyota, Lexus, Scion)
1656 of these were against General Motors Products
2933 of these were against Ford Motor Company Products
998 were against Chrysler Products
366 were against Nissan Products
593 were against Honda Products

So since the 2000 Model year, Ford and Toyota have a speed control problems
not related to the cruise control of the similar magnitudes. Ford has fewer
total complaints (for 2000-2010 in total), and they probably sold a few more
cars over the 11 years as well. So I think it would be fair to say they had
slightly less of a problem that Toyota for the entire 11 year period in
total.

BUT, How about if you pick the last 4 model years (2007-2010). 2007 is when
the Toyota problems allegedly began:

1330 of these were against Toyotas Products (Toyota, Lexus, Scion)
124 of these were against General Motors Products
180 of these were against Ford Motor Company Products
108 were against Chrysler Products
39 were against Nissan Products
75 were against Honda Products

So, while you can certainly see that Ford had a problem in the past, by 2007
they had corrected it. Toyota's problem just began when everyone else's were
ending.

The data I used is freely available to anyone, so feel free to check for
yourself.

>> How fast did Ford react to those sticking cruise-controls?
>> Not too quickly, I see...
>> <http://www.google.com/#hl=en&safe=off&q=ford+%22cruise+control%22+sticking+recall&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=ford+%22cruise+control%22+sticking+recall&fp=c26c79a56c95bda8>

Did you read your own references? Most of the references that search pulls
up are related to the leaking cruise control deactivation switches, not "a
sticking cruise control." In fact the first symptom of a bad switch is that
the cruise control stops working.

Ed



From: ransley on 28 Feb 2010 23:35
On Feb 28, 4:38 pm, "C. E. White" <cewhite3rem...(a)mindspring.com>
wrote:
> "jim beam" <m...(a)privacy.net> wrote in message
>
> news:QKydnVzcOeOtpBTWnZ2dnUVZ_t8AAAAA(a)speakeasy.net...
>
> >> ALL automakers have SUA incidents. In fact, from 2004 to 2009,
> >> Ford had FAR MORE of them than Toyota did.
> >> See the small graph part way down this page:
> >> <http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870351020457508553138371....>
>
> The information at Consumer Reports is more comprehensive, but still
> selective.
>
> I am not sure how the WSJ is counting Sudden Acceleration incidents. I
> assume they are using the NHTSA database, but it doesn't actually have a
> category called "Sudden Acceleration." There are multiple categories related
> to Vehicle Speed Control (the base category plus CRUISE CONTROL, ACCELERATOR
> PEDAL, CRUISE CONTROL, LINKAGE, CABLE, LEVER, etc.). I am guessing they are
> just counting the total number of complaints over a time period. I can do
> that but I cannot duplicate their numbers, or even come close.  If I search
> on the term "sudden acceleration" in the complaint description field, I only
> get a total of 580 complaints in total against all manufacturers for the
> 2004 to 2009 period. I can do other searches, but none match the WSJ
> numbers.
>
> You can muddy the water by picking a particular year and which components
> you feel are involved.
>
> For vehicles model years 2000 to 2010, there are 14,040 Vehicle Speed
> Control Complaints of all types (including Cruise Control Complaints).
>
> 3461 of these were against Toyotas Products (Toyota, Lexus, Scion)
> 1882 of these were against General Motors Products
> 3659 of these were against Ford Motor Company Products
> 1139 were against Chrysler Products
> 393 were against Nissan Products
> 636 were against Honda Products
>
> So based on this you'd have to say Ford deserves a lot of scrutiny, which
> they have gotten. They were trashed about Cruise Control related problems
> for multiple years. Remember I said I included cruise control complaints in
> the total. If I don't include cruise control complaints..
>
> 3347 of these were against Toyotas Products (Toyota, Lexus, Scion)
> 1656 of these were against General Motors Products
> 2933 of these were against Ford Motor Company Products
> 998 were against Chrysler Products
> 366 were against Nissan Products
> 593 were against Honda Products
>
> So since the 2000 Model year, Ford and Toyota have a speed control problems
> not related to the cruise control of the similar magnitudes. Ford has fewer
> total complaints (for 2000-2010 in total), and they probably sold a few more
> cars over the 11 years as well. So I think it would be fair to say they had
> slightly less of a problem that Toyota for the entire 11 year period in
> total.
>
> BUT, How about if you pick the last 4 model years (2007-2010). 2007 is when
> the Toyota problems allegedly began:
>
> 1330 of these were against Toyotas Products (Toyota, Lexus, Scion)
> 124 of these were against General Motors Products
> 180 of these were against Ford Motor Company Products
> 108 were against Chrysler Products
> 39 were against Nissan Products
> 75 were against Honda Products
>
> So, while you can certainly see that Ford had a problem in the past, by 2007
> they had corrected it. Toyota's problem just began when everyone else's were
> ending.
>
> The data I used is freely available to anyone, so feel free to check for
> yourself.
>
> >> How fast did Ford react to those sticking cruise-controls?
> >> Not too quickly, I see...
> >> <http://www.google.com/#hl=en&safe=off&q=ford+%22cruise+control%22+sti...>
>
> Did you read your own references? Most of the references that search pulls
> up are related to the leaking cruise control deactivation switches, not "a
> sticking cruise control." In fact the first symptom of a bad switch is that
> the cruise control stops working.
>
> Ed

You cant judge by the number of complaints, how many complaints were
for the cruise not engaging, not resuming, not maintaining speed,
deaceleration, and how many were for accelerating by itself.
From: C. E. White on 1 Mar 2010 11:24

"ransley" <Mark_Ransley(a)Yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e6b26351-65b5-48f9-851a-12b47f23e514(a)g28g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...

> You cant judge by the number of complaints, how many complaints were
> for the cruise not engaging, not resuming, not maintaining speed,
> deaceleration, and how many were for accelerating by itself.

I agree.



Just looking at raw numbers of complaints can be misleading.



For instance manyof the Ford complaints are pre-2007 and are related
to the older style, mechanically controlled throttle plates. Most of
these complaint dealt with surging idles and sticky accelerator pedals
I had a couple of Fords of the 2000-2006 vintage and I experienced
some of these concerns. There were two main causes for the concerns -
a gummed up IAC (Idle Air Control) and a gummed up throttle body
(leading to a sticky throttle).



If the IAC got gummed up it wouldn't properly regulate the idle speed.
Sometimes you would get a rolling idle that wouldn't stabilize. Other
times the car wouldn't idle at all. Cleaning the IAC usually fixed
this. There were numerous TSB related to this concern. The IAC only
had a tiny air flow port, so it could not provide any sort of major
power increase, even if it was stuck wide open.



The gummed up throttle body usually manifested itself as an
accelerator pedal that was "sticky" when the vehicle was cold. This
could be really disconcerting because when you pressed lightly on the
accelerator pedal nothing much happened. When you pressed harder, the
throttle plate would suddenly break free of the goo and you could
overshoot and apply too much throttle. Cleaning the throttle body
would fix this. However, lots of Fords had sticker saying not to clean
the throttle body. Supposedly they had an anti-goo coating - but it
didn't work - at least for me. There were also multiple TSB related to
this concern as well.



Ford also had other problems related to the accelerator pedal - pedal
entrapment on some vehicles and broken parts on others. And of course,
just like Toyota, there were numerous mysterious sudden acceleration
cases that may or may not have been related to pedal confusion. All of
these sorts of complaints against Ford seem to have been mostly
eliminated by the 2007 model year. I believe by then all Ford models
had been converted to fly by wire throttle systems of some sort. So I
guess for Ford, fly by wire systems eliminated problems.



Toyota seems to have the opposite problem - going to a fly by wire
system seems to have resulted in a rash of concerns. Also, about the
worst thing you see happening with all the older Ford vehicle speed
control concerns were reports of minor parking lot incidents, but
mostly people complaining about the bad idle. The recent Toyota
complaints are a lot more ominous. I guess Ford figured their problems
out. GM, Chrysler, Nissan, and Honda never seem to have had a
significant number of UA problems. So, if I was running Toyota, I
might go talk to the guys over at Nissan. And for sure, I'd be looking
at the electronics (even if I was sure that was not the source of the
problem).


Ed



First  |  Prev  |  Next  |  Last
Pages: 1 2 3
Prev: Lawmaker: Toyota withheld crash lawsuit evidence
Next: How can you survive your credit cards?