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From: Mike Hunter on 19 Jun 2010 13:21
Mine was a 1957 Toyopet. My Degree is in metallurgy so most of my time
while at Ford was chassis design. Primarily we worked with metals that
were best suited for crumple zones and then crashing test the stuff. ;)


"Ray O" <rokigawa(a)NOSPAMtristarassociates.com> wrote in message
news:hviqca$pjt$3(a)news.eternal-september.org...
>
> "Mike Hunter" <Mikehunt2(a)lycos,com> wrote in message
> news:jJ6dnRFG9shzZ4bRnZ2dnUVZ_rudnZ2d(a)ptd.net...
> <snipped>
>>
>> Reminds me of the first "car" Toyota, which was in reality a truck with a
>> car body, exported to the US back in 1957. A friend of mine, long gone,
>> owned a Dodge dealership and purchased a Toyota franchise, that is today
>> Toyotas oldest dealership. Because I was well known locally in the
>> automobile business, he asked me to buy a Toyopet for $600 . He ask me
>> to show it around, if you don't want to keep it, he said; I'll buy it
>> back within a year for $600. Six months later I took it back, it was a
>> real turkey that could not get out of its own way on the mountains,
>> rattled and was always stalling. To say their cars were over the 2%,
>> back then, would be kind.
>>
>
> Actually, the first passenger cars that Toyota imported to the U.S. never
> sold and were returned to Japan after a year. The dealer in Hollywood was
> located at the top of a hill and the only way to get the car back to the
> showroom after a test drive was to put it in reverse and back up the last
> block to the showroom. I guess customers were not too impressed with
> those cars so Toyota sold the Land Cruiser for a couple of years and
> re-introduced the Toyopet in the U.S. around 1959. You probably got the
> "new and improved" Toyopet. ;-)
>
> BTW, I met a retired guy last week who may have worked with you in
> Dearborn, he worked on steering & suspension design. He would talk for
> hours on all sorts of subjects, but I think he said he worked on the Fox
> chassis?
> --
>
> Ray O
> (correct punctuation to reply)
>
>
>
>


From: Scott Dorsey on 19 Jun 2010 14:51
Ashton Crusher <demi(a)moore.net> wrote:
>It's really incredibly stupid. Toyota went from 1.08 last year to
>1.17 this year in terms of problems PER CAR. No retail car customer
>in their right mind owning one or two new Toyotas (or any other brand)
>would consider a change of 0.09 problems in the first 90 days
>something meaningful in terms of making a buying decision. There is
>so little difference between most brands that the whole thing has
>become ludicrous.

Well, the thing is, NONE of the cars today have enough initial defects to
be considered alarming... all of them are far better than anything made
a couple decades ago.

So, really, using initial defects to compare vehicles is useless because
the defect levels are all in the noise floor.

The problem is, though, that what I want to know is how reliable a car
will be after I've been driving it for twenty years, and measuring that
without first driving the car for twenty years isn't possible. So there
really isn't a good metric for what I most want to know, and the metric
that _is_ available is effectively useless. It's a sad state of affairs.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
From: Mike Hunter on 19 Jun 2010 17:05
It is 117 complaints per HUNDRED CARS, not per car, or 0.117%, up from
0.108% that is only .009%, less than one tenth of a percent.

From Porsche at the top to Land Rover at the bottom, the difference is less
than 1 tenth of a percent. That is a statically an unimportant difference
at best, when one considers nearly 12,000,000 vehicle have been sold, year
to date, and only a small portion of new car owners were surveyed. Most
political sampling surveys have a difference of plus OR minus of 4%!


"Ashton Crusher" <demi(a)moore.net> wrote in message
news:r44q16hhmf6tmpi1pp18sp8245apl4grfk(a)4ax.com...
> It's really incredibly stupid. Toyota went from 1.08 last year to
> 1.17 this year in terms of problems PER CAR.

>>BTW, here is the list:
>>
>>2010 IQS Nameplate Ranking
>>Problems per 100 vehicles
>>Porsche 83
>>Acura 86
>>Mercedes-Benz 87
>>Lexus 88
>>Ford 93
>>Honda 95
>>Hyundai 102
>>Lincoln 106
>>Infiniti 107
>>Volvo 109
>>Industry Average 109
>>Ram 110
>>Audi 111
>>Cadillac 111
>>Chevrolet 111
>>Nissan 111
>>BMW 113
>>Mercury 113
>>Buick 114
>>Mazda 114
>>Scion 114
>>Toyota 117
>>Subaru 121
>>Chrysler 122
>>Suzuki 122
>>GMC 126
>>Kia 126
>>Jeep 129
>>Dodge 130
>>Jaguar 130
>>Mini 133
>>Volkswagen 135
>>Mitsubishi 146
>>Land Rover 170
>>
>>Read more:
>>http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100617/RETAIL/100619882/1424#ixzz0r8stEiCJ
>>
>>"C. E. White" <cewhite3(a)mindspring.com> wrote in message
>>news:hvduju$b49$1(a)news.eternal-september.org...
>>> Toyota drags down new-vehicle quality average; Ford leads Detroit 3
>>> gains,
>>> J.D. Power says
>>> David Phillips
>>> Automotive News -- June 17, 2010 - 12:01 am ET
>>> UPDATED: 6/17/10 2:36 p.m. ET
>>>
>>> DETROIT -- Dragged down by Toyota Motor Corp., the quality of new cars
>>> and
>>> trucks sold in the United States slipped slightly this year -- the first
>>> time since 2007, according to a study released today.
>>>
>>> But Detroit's automakers -- helped by Ford Motor Co. and some of the
>>> smoothest new-model launches ever -- have matched or surpassed Asian and
>>> European rivals in initial vehicle quality for the first time, based on
>>> the closely watched J.D. Power and Associates survey.
>>>
>>> For the 2010 model year, General Motors Co., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler
>>> Group averaged 108 problems per 100 vehicles, compared with 109 problems
>>> for every 100 Asian and European vehicles, J.D. Power announced at an
>>> Automotive Press Association luncheon here today.
>>>
>>> Models such as the Ford Focus, Ford Fusion, Ram pickup and Buick Enclave
>>> helped drive Detroit's gains for 2010, the market research firm said.
>>>
>>> Among segments, J.D. Power said domestic brands lead rivals in cars and
>>> pickups, while foreign brands lead in crossovers, SUVs and vans.
>>>
>>> Ford -- with 12 models ranked among the top three in their respective
>>> segments -- was largely responsible for Detroit's showing in the latest
>>> survey. The Ford brand, with less than one problem per new model, jumped
>>> from eighth place in 2009 to fifth this year -- its best showing ever.
>>> Ford is the highest-ranked nonluxury brand in the survey as well.
>>>
>>> Overall, GM's initial quality slipped, with all four brands below the
>>> industry average, though the automaker had 10 models ranked in the top
>>> three of their respective segments. Buick, with 114 problems per 100
>>> models, was the only GM brand to improve in the survey. J.D. Power said
>>> GM
>>> was hurt by the launch of several new models such as the Cadillac SRX,
>>> Buick LaCrosse, and Chevrolet Equinox and Camaro.
>>>
>>> Chrysler's four brands all improved but still fell below the industry
>>> average, although the new Ram truck brand scored just below the industry
>>> average.
>>>
>>> Industry slips
>>>
>>> Overall for 2010, new-vehicle quality slipped industrywide to 109
>>> problems
>>> per 100 models from 108 in 2009. The results are based on a J.D. Power
>>> survey of 82,000 new-vehicle buyers after 90 days of ownership.
>>>
>>> A big reason for the slight drop in industry quality was Toyota Motor
>>> Corp.'s Toyota brand, which slipped below the industry average for the
>>> first time, to 21st place, with 117 problems reported per 100 models.
>>>
>>> The publicity surrounding sudden acceleration in several Toyota models
>>> was
>>> top-of-mind for many new owners of the brand's vehicles, J.D. Power
>>> said.
>>>
>>> "Clearly, Toyota has endured a difficult year," said Dave Sargent, vice
>>> president of global vehicle research at J.D. Power.
>>>
>>> Overall, Japanese brands averaged 108 problems per 100 models surveyed,
>>> a
>>> tie with U.S. domestic brands. South Korean brands averaged 111 problems
>>> and Europeans 114 problems.
>>>
>>> BMW's Mini was the most improved brand, and the Ford Explorer Sport Trac
>>> was the most improved model. Overall, 18 brands improved and 15 brands
>>> declined in the survey.
>>>
>>> Detroit showing
>>>
>>> For Detroit automakers, the results contrast sharply with a year ago,
>>> when
>>> the bankruptcies of GM and Chrysler underscored longtime consumer
>>> perceptions about the quality of domestic brands.
>>>
>>> "This year may mark a key turning point for U.S. brands as they continue
>>> to fight the battle against lingering negative perceptions of their
>>> quality," said Sargent. "Achieving quality comparability is the first
>>> half
>>> of the battle. Convincing consumers -- particularly import buyers --
>>> that
>>> they have done this is the second half."
>>>
>>> The quality of new or revamped models continued to improve in 2010, led
>>> by
>>> product launches from Ford, Honda, Lexus, Mercedes-Benz and Porsche. In
>>> the past, new models, on average, experienced substantially more quality
>>> problems than carryover models.
>>>
>>> But in its latest survey, J.D. Power said more than a half of all models
>>> launched during the 2010 model year performed better than their
>>> respective
>>> segment averages.
>>>
>>> At the same time, the initial quality of carryover and refreshed models
>>> fell in 2010.
>>>
>>> At the top
>>>
>>> Porsche AG, which launched the four-door Panamera, was the top-ranked
>>> brand, with 83 problems per 100 models surveyed. It was followed by
>>> Acura,
>>> Mercedes-Benz, Lexus and Ford. Honda, Hyundai, Lincoln, Infiniti and
>>> Volvo
>>> also finished above the industry average.
>>>
>>> Last year, Lexus topped the survey with 84 problems per 100 models.
>>> Porsche and Lexus have led the survey for the past six years.
>>>
>>> At the bottom of the survey, with 170 problems per 100 models, was Land
>>> Rover. Mitsubishi, Volkswagen, Mini, Jaguar and Dodge also placed near
>>> the
>>> bottom.
>>>
>>> Sargent said the industry has nailed "the oily parts" of the car and
>>> truck, with engine, transmission and chassis problems all but extinct.
>>> But
>>> new technologies such as Bluetooth, navigation and cameras continue to
>>> stymie automakers and consumers.
>>>
>>> "The industry is still struggling to seamlessly integrate these features
>>> in a way that does not frustrate consumers," Sargent said. "It can be
>>> anything from a voice recognition system that fails to recognize
>>> commands
>>> or a bad sensor that monitors tire pressure."
>>>
>>>
>>> Read more:
>>> http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100617/RETAIL/100619882/
>>>
>>


From: Mike Hunter on 19 Jun 2010 17:12
J. D. Powers surveys original owners of NEW cars. After thee months and at
12 months of ownership, by then the cars they own are no longer sold.

Surveying used car owners is useless because they might not be the original
owners and the cars sold currently are not anywhere near the same cars sold
today or even those of five years ago, let alone ten year old.


"Scott Dorsey" <kludge(a)panix.com> wrote in message
news:hvj3in$46o$1(a)panix2.panix.com...
> Ashton Crusher <demi(a)moore.net> wrote:
>>It's really incredibly stupid. Toyota went from 1.08 last year to
>>1.17 this year in terms of problems PER CAR. No retail car customer
>>in their right mind owning one or two new Toyotas (or any other brand)
>>would consider a change of 0.09 problems in the first 90 days
>>something meaningful in terms of making a buying decision. There is
>>so little difference between most brands that the whole thing has
>>become ludicrous.
>
> Well, the thing is, NONE of the cars today have enough initial defects to
> be considered alarming... all of them are far better than anything made
> a couple decades ago.
>
> So, really, using initial defects to compare vehicles is useless because
> the defect levels are all in the noise floor.
>
> The problem is, though, that what I want to know is how reliable a car
> will be after I've been driving it for twenty years, and measuring that
> without first driving the car for twenty years isn't possible. So there
> really isn't a good metric for what I most want to know, and the metric
> that _is_ available is effectively useless. It's a sad state of affairs.
> --scott
>
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


From: Ray O on 19 Jun 2010 18:52

"Mike Hunter" <Mikehunt2(a)lycos,com> wrote in message
news:3OmdnSk2a9UJYYHRnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d(a)ptd.net...
> Mine was a 1957 Toyopet. My Degree is in metallurgy so most of my time
> while at Ford was chassis design. Primarily we worked with metals that
> were best suited for crumple zones and then crashing test the stuff. ;)
>
>
I must be off by a couple of years, the cars they returned must have been
'55 models ;-)

I would have thought that the chassis engineers would work with the steering
and suspension engineers so that the suspensions didn't negatively impact
the crumple zone.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)


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