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From: dr_jeff on 17 Jun 2010 19:22
Mike Hunter wrote:
> The problems that may show up early on are the best indicator of overall
> build quality, but the fact remains ALL vehicles fall within the 2% failure
> range for ALL manufactured products,

Bull. Not ALL manufactured products have a "2% failure range." If I am
incorrect, prove it.

If every manufactured product had a 2% failure range, then the space
shuttle would never have gotten off the ground, because it is made from
hundreds of thousands of components. Buildings would be falling down all
the time, because girders would be breaking during construction.

If you were correct, then the average number of defects would be about 2
per 100 cars, not 100 to 200 per 100 cars, as it is.

This has been pointed out to you in the past. And you still don't
understand that 100 problems per 100 vehicles is a not a 2% failure rate.

> that is why they all have a warranty,
> even Rolls Royce. Differences of 1% are meaningless. EVERY manufacturer
> is making great cars today.

Maybe they all make some good cars, but not all cars are great.

> The only REAL difference among them is style
> and price.

Really?

> My advise, when people ask for my advise because of my experience in
> building, selling, and servicing vehicles, is to test drive those three or
> more that best suits your needs, then get a total DRIVE HOME PRICE including
> selling price, dealer add-ons and financing costs, if you must finance, from
> at least TWO dealers of the top two or three models you choose then buy your
> vehicle from the dealer nearest you home that gives you the best price and
> has the lowest shop rate.
>
> It never made sense to me when I was in retail, why some people are willing
> to pay 20% to 30% more for some of our brands because they thought they were
> "better."

Gee buying something better for 20% or 30% more is a good idea, if it is
better. I paid a lot more for my Apples than I would have for HP's or
Dells, but I got better computers. I definitely got a better buy with
more more expensive Apple than had I bought a cheaper HP or Dell.

> Thinking you will not get one of the 2%, is foolish at best.

What 2%? Just about all cars have defects, with defects around 100 per
100 vehicles.

You didn't know what you were talking about before.

And you don't know what you're talking about now.

> The odds are far greater that you will get one of the 98% that are trouble
> free.

Really? Very few cars are totally trouble free. The average number of
defects per car is about one defecte per car (108 defects per 100 cars).
http://businesscenter.jdpower.com/news/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2010099

> Personally, I run two cars (trade or sell the one that is two years old) and
> get a new vehicle every year. I Email a list of what I want in the
> vehicle, to the Group or Fleet Sales Manager(s) at numerous dealerships for
> a bid price. Then I visit the dealerships that give me a price, closest to
> what I know I should be paying for the car as equipped, and get a total
> drive home price if I end up trading my car.

Good for you.
From: dr_jeff on 17 Jun 2010 22:11
Mike Hunter wrote:
> I hope you do not teach MATH, if that is what you believe LOL

2 / 100 = 0.02 = 2%

108 / 100 = 1.08 = 108%

You still haven't shown that all manufactured good have 2% failure rate.
You know something strange? I opened and sharpened a box of 144 pencils.
Instead of 2 or 3 bad pencils, they were all good, a failure rate of 0%.

You had better write Staples and tell them there is a problem with their
pencils.

Or, you had better read about quality assurance.

Jeff

> "dr_jeff" <utz(a)msu.edu> wrote in message
> news:pfSdnW3IC5egM4fRnZ2dnUVZ_hmdnZ2d(a)giganews.com...
>> Mike Hunter wrote:
>>> The problems that may show up early on are the best indicator of overall
>>> build quality, but the fact remains ALL vehicles fall within the 2%
>>> failure range for ALL manufactured products,
>> Bull. Not ALL manufactured products have a "2% failure range." If I am
>> incorrect, prove it.
>>
>> If every manufactured product had a 2% failure range, then the space
>> shuttle would never have gotten off the ground, because it is made from
>> hundreds of thousands of components. Buildings would be falling down all
>> the time, because girders would be breaking during construction.
>>
>> If you were correct, then the average number of defects would be about 2
>> per 100 cars, not 100 to 200 per 100 cars, as it is.
>>
>> This has been pointed out to you in the past. And you still don't
>> understand that 100 problems per 100 vehicles is a not a 2% failure rate.
>>
>>> that is why they all have a warranty, even Rolls Royce. Differences of
>>> 1% are meaningless. EVERY manufacturer is making great cars today.
>> Maybe they all make some good cars, but not all cars are great.
>>
>>> The only REAL difference among them is style and price.
>> Really?
>>
>>> My advise, when people ask for my advise because of my experience in
>>> building, selling, and servicing vehicles, is to test drive those three
>>> or more that best suits your needs, then get a total DRIVE HOME PRICE
>>> including selling price, dealer add-ons and financing costs, if you must
>>> finance, from at least TWO dealers of the top two or three models you
>>> choose then buy your vehicle from the dealer nearest you home that gives
>>> you the best price and has the lowest shop rate.
>>>
>>> It never made sense to me when I was in retail, why some people are
>>> willing to pay 20% to 30% more for some of our brands because they
>>> thought they were "better."
>> Gee buying something better for 20% or 30% more is a good idea, if it is
>> better. I paid a lot more for my Apples than I would have for HP's or
>> Dells, but I got better computers. I definitely got a better buy with more
>> more expensive Apple than had I bought a cheaper HP or Dell.
>>
>>> Thinking you will not get one of the 2%, is foolish at best.
>> What 2%? Just about all cars have defects, with defects around 100 per 100
>> vehicles.
>>
>> You didn't know what you were talking about before.
>>
>> And you don't know what you're talking about now.
>>
>>> The odds are far greater that you will get one of the 98% that are
>>> trouble free.
>> Really? Very few cars are totally trouble free. The average number of
>> defects per car is about one defecte per car (108 defects per 100 cars).
>> http://businesscenter.jdpower.com/news/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2010099
>>
>>> Personally, I run two cars (trade or sell the one that is two years old)
>>> and get a new vehicle every year. I Email a list of what I want in the
>>> vehicle, to the Group or Fleet Sales Manager(s) at numerous dealerships
>>> for a bid price. Then I visit the dealerships that give me a price,
>>> closest to what I know I should be paying for the car as equipped, and
>>> get a total drive home price if I end up trading my car.
>> Good for you.
>
>
From: dr_jeff on 18 Jun 2010 06:15
Dave D wrote:
> "dr_jeff" <utz(a)msu.edu> wrote in message
> news:pfSdnW3IC5egM4fRnZ2dnUVZ_hmdnZ2d(a)giganews.com...
>> Mike Hunter wrote:
>>> The problems that may show up early on are the best indicator of overall
>>> build quality, but the fact remains ALL vehicles fall within the 2%
>>> failure range for ALL manufactured products,
>> Bull. Not ALL manufactured products have a "2% failure range." If I am
>> incorrect, prove it.
>
> NO! You made the claim - ergo you provide the evidence to support your
> rebuttal

Did you notice I did? There is a failure rate of 108 per 100 cars or
108% failure rate.

>> If every manufactured product had a 2% failure range, then the space
>> shuttle would never have gotten off the ground, because it is made from
>> hundreds of thousands of components. Buildings would be falling down all
>> the time, because girders would be breaking during construction.
> Comparing the space shuttle and buildings to automobiles is apples and
> oranges therefore, a worthless comparison.

Not when the OP said that *ALL* manufactured good have a 2% failure rate.

>> If you were correct, then the average number of defects would be about 2
>> per 100 cars, not 100 to 200 per 100 cars, as it is.
>>
>> This has been pointed out to you in the past. And you still don't
>> understand that 100 problems per 100 vehicles is a not a 2% failure rate.
>>
>>> that is why they all have a warranty, even Rolls Royce. Differences of
>>> 1% are meaningless. EVERY manufacturer is making great cars today.
>> Maybe they all make some good cars, but not all cars are great.
>
> How very true. Not all cars are even moderately acceptable
>>> The only REAL difference among them is style and price.
>> Really?
>>
>>> My advise, when people ask for my advise because of my experience in
>>> building, selling, and servicing vehicles, is to test drive those three
>>> or more that best suits your needs, then get a total DRIVE HOME PRICE
>>> including selling price, dealer add-ons and financing costs, if you must
>>> finance, from at least TWO dealers of the top two or three models you
>>> choose then buy your vehicle from the dealer nearest you home that gives
>>> you the best price and has the lowest shop rate.
>>>
>>> It never made sense to me when I was in retail, why some people are
>>> willing to pay 20% to 30% more for some of our brands because they
>>> thought they were "better."
>> Gee buying something better for 20% or 30% more is a good idea, if it is
>> better. I paid a lot more for my Apples than I would have for HP's or
>> Dells, but I got better computers. I definitely got a better buy with more
>> more expensive Apple than had I bought a cheaper HP or Dell.
> This is an opinion not a proven nor proveable fact.

Correct. Except that because I work better with my Apple than a Dell, it
is a lot of money that is well spent.

>>> Thinking you will not get one of the 2%, is foolish at best.
>> What 2%? Just about all cars have defects, with defects around 100 per 100
>> vehicles.
>>
>> You didn't know what you were talking about before.
>>
>> And you don't know what you're talking about now.
>
> And you do?!!!!!!!! Since when? That would be a major change!!!
> DaveD
>
>
From: dr_jeff on 18 Jun 2010 15:54
Ray wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 19:22:37 -0400, dr_jeff <utz(a)msu.edu> wrote:
>
>
>> If every manufactured product had a 2% failure range, then the space
>> shuttle would never have gotten off the ground, because it is made from
>> hundreds of thousands of components.
>>
> That is 2% for the total system. Richard Feynman predicted that the
> space shuttle would have that sort of failure. He was proved correct
> when they have crashed in about 1 in 50 missions.

Look at how many missions were delayed because of problems with the
computers, motors, fuel leaks, etc. It is far higher than 2% of the
missions.

Jeff
From: dr_jeff on 20 Jun 2010 12:50
Mike Hunter wrote:
> Need I say, do your own homework once again? It is the average failure RATE
> among all manufactured products that falls between a just below 1% and up to
> near 2%. That is the rate for cars today as well if you look at the
> various J.D. Powers owners surveys for what they actually are, a listing by
> PERCENTAGE, that why the says PER HUNDRED, dummy.

Yeah, it says 108 per 100, which is 108%. And you call me a dummy.

> "Stewart" <gortamus(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:hvhigl$1nv$1(a)news.eternal-september.org...
>> "dr_jeff" <utz(a)msu.edu> wrote in message
>> news:pfSdnW3IC5egM4fRnZ2dnUVZ_hmdnZ2d(a)giganews.com...
>>> Mike Hunter wrote:
>>>> The problems that may show up early on are the best indicator of overall
>>>> build quality, but the fact remains ALL vehicles fall within the 2%
>>>> failure range for ALL manufactured products,
>>> Bull. Not ALL manufactured products have a "2% failure range." If I am
>>> incorrect, prove it.
>> A 2% failure rate would be the death of most all medical devices. Even a
>> 2% complaint rate could lead to a recall (not every complaint is a
>> failure, but all need to be investigated and probable root cause
>> established).
>>
>>> If every manufactured product had a 2% failure range, then the space
>>> shuttle would never have gotten off the ground, because it is made from
>>> hundreds of thousands of components. Buildings would be falling down all
>>> the time, because girders would be breaking during construction.
>>>
>>> If you were correct, then the average number of defects would be about 2
>>> per 100 cars, not 100 to 200 per 100 cars, as it is.
>>>
>>> This has been pointed out to you in the past. And you still don't
>>> understand that 100 problems per 100 vehicles is a not a 2% failure rate.
>>>
>>>> that is why they all have a warranty, even Rolls Royce. Differences of
>>>> 1% are meaningless. EVERY manufacturer is making great cars today.
>>> Maybe they all make some good cars, but not all cars are great.
>>>
>>>> The only REAL difference among them is style and price.
>>> Really?
>>>
>>>> My advise, when people ask for my advise because of my experience in
>>>> building, selling, and servicing vehicles, is to test drive those three
>>>> or more that best suits your needs, then get a total DRIVE HOME PRICE
>>>> including selling price, dealer add-ons and financing costs, if you must
>>>> finance, from at least TWO dealers of the top two or three models you
>>>> choose then buy your vehicle from the dealer nearest you home that gives
>>>> you the best price and has the lowest shop rate.
>>>>
>>>> It never made sense to me when I was in retail, why some people are
>>>> willing to pay 20% to 30% more for some of our brands because they
>>>> thought they were "better."
>>> Gee buying something better for 20% or 30% more is a good idea, if it is
>>> better. I paid a lot more for my Apples than I would have for HP's or
>>> Dells, but I got better computers. I definitely got a better buy with
>>> more more expensive Apple than had I bought a cheaper HP or Dell.
>> That would be a better computer for you, probably not a better computer
>> for me (even though I prefer them).
>>
>>>> Thinking you will not get one of the 2%, is foolish at best.
>>> What 2%? Just about all cars have defects, with defects around 100 per
>>> 100 vehicles.
>>>
>>> You didn't know what you were talking about before.
>>>
>>> And you don't know what you're talking about now.
>>>
>>>> The odds are far greater that you will get one of the 98% that are
>>>> trouble free.
>>> Really? Very few cars are totally trouble free. The average number of
>>> defects per car is about one defecte per car (108 defects per 100 cars).
>>> http://businesscenter.jdpower.com/news/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2010099
>>>
>> I've had one that I know of that was taken care of by the tranny recall.
>> Of course, some may a different perception of what a defect is.......they
>> all get counted, even the phantom defects.
>>
>>>> Personally, I run two cars (trade or sell the one that is two years old)
>>>> and get a new vehicle every year. I Email a list of what I want in
>>>> the vehicle, to the Group or Fleet Sales Manager(s) at numerous
>>>> dealerships for a bid price. Then I visit the dealerships that give me
>>>> a price, closest to what I know I should be paying for the car as
>>>> equipped, and get a total drive home price if I end up trading my car.
>>> Good for you.
>> Yes....I usually pay cash and drive it until the wheels fall
>> off....(figuratively speaking).
>>
>
>
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