ON Topic: 88 Supra overheating...
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From: Hachiroku ハチロク on 6 Jun 2010 23:15 On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 19:43:59 -0400, clare wrote: > On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 15:37:30 -0400, Hachiroku ???? <Trueno(a)e86.GTS> wrote: > >>On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 17:05:51 +0000, Tegger wrote: >> >>> =?iso-2022-jp?q?Hachiroku_=1B$B%O%A%m%=2F=1B=28B?= <Trueno(a)e86.GTS> >>> wrote in news:iLFOn.137251$0M5.33520(a)newsfe07.iad: >>> >>>> On Sat, 05 Jun 2010 02:52:32 +0000, Tegger wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> So, uh, have you taken a whiff of the expansion bottle yet? It only >>>>> takes seconds to do that, and the result could change the entire >>>>> tendency of this thread... >>>> >>>> So I took it out of the garage, moved it to my work apron out back, >>>> had it running for about 7 minutes. Opened the bottle and took a good >>>> whiff... >>>> >>>> What does it mean if it smells like exhaust...? :( >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Nothing good. >> >>That's what I thought you were going to say... >> >> > It means PARK IT AND PULL THE HEAD. That's what I thought you were going to say...
From: jim beam on 6 Jun 2010 23:59 On 06/06/2010 07:51 PM, clare(a)snyder.on.ca wrote: > On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 17:00:19 -0700, jim beam<me(a)privacy.net> wrote: > >> On 06/06/2010 04:43 PM, clare(a)snyder.on.ca wrote: >>> On Sat, 05 Jun 2010 22:50:58 -0700, jim beam<me(a)privacy.net> wrote: >>> >>>>> OK - I checket out your reference - it is NOT checking the pH of the >>>>> coolant. >>>> >>>> you can use it either way. if the system is bubbling, then the gasket >>>> is leaking. and don't need a reagent to tell you that! >>> >>> Not necessarily true. >>> If you have air trapped in the system it will bubble like crazy as it >>> warms up, and sometimes even blow all the antifreeze back out - >>> without there being ANY leakage in the system >> >> ok, so i'm guilty of presuming that we're not talking novices here and >> that we know how to bleed a cooling system. > > And they don't know how to check for a damaged head gasket - RIGHT!!! > Bleeding the cooling system requires different procedures on different > cars. Some can be extremely difficult to "burp". Ever bleed the > cooling system on a Renault R12???? > And the Supra M engine is a BIT more difficult than some, although > much simpler than many others. On some you need to remove a hose - and > different hoses on different vehicles. Some need filling through the > expansion bottle - all kinds of different ways - > > We ARE talking to novices in this group well /i'm/ not. >> >> >>>> >>>> otoh, if you use the reagent to test the coolant, and you can, then you >>>> have your result. >>> >>> But if the PH of the coolant is "off" in the first place, >> >> "off"??? not unless you've got a beer pump attached to your cooling >> system. > > In many cases a 50% mixture of tap water and glycol is very high in pH > - and depending on the water source, it can be very low. Low PH (acid > condition) causes corrosion in the cooling system. High pH > (alkalinity) causes scale build-up in the cooling system. Correct > buffering of the coolant prevents both problems - and ONLY a correctly > buffered system can accurately be checked for leaks by testing the > coolant with Bromothymol Blue. two things: 1. you shouldn't be filling the cooling system with tap water in the first place. it should be de-ionized/distilled. for precisely the contamination/corrosion reasons you cite. 2. who is supposed to be buffering these solutions in the first place? and for what conditions??? certainly not the end user. this is not a "one size fits all" situation. > On the other hand, using it in a "sniff tester" as described to > detect CO2 in the air coming off the top of the rad you can accurately > determine if there is a combustion leak into the cooling system, > regardless of the pH of the system before the test. yes in theory, but in practice, only in the later stages of gasket leakage. at which point, it's pretty danged obvious what's going on anyway. >> >> >>> the reagent >>> will show you have a leak when you don't, using it your way. >>> >>> Using it the right way, it won't lie. >> >> not true. early stage head gasket can persist for quite some time. one >> of my cars took roughly a year and ~30k miles between the overheating >> event that initiated failure and the exhaust venting into the coolant >> badly enough to be visible. and even then, it was only a small amount, >> and only when hot, not cold. all this would have been resolved with a >> pH test early on. if you're worried about a false positive, change the >> coolant, and re-test a couple of weeks later. > > I'd be much more worried about a false negative i'm not. just change the coolant. it's a few bucks. > - and leakage on a > COLD engine is much more common than on a hot engine, untrue. early stage leakage is usually only manifest when hot. we want to catch this thing as quickly as possible. > when it is > intermittent.Starting with a cold engine, with the sniffer tester > connected and run untill warm under a light load (fast idle in drive > on an automatic, or A/C on and headlights on high beam) will catch > even a small elusive leak with fair reliability. indeed, but later stages. in which case, bubbles in the coolant should be making the problem obvious anyway. > And changing the antifreeze to resolve the uncertainty is totally > un-necessary (even in your scenario), Antifreeze is routinely > "reconditioned" by running ithrough a filter and the pH corrected by > the addition of buffering agents. you can't recover ethylene glycol by filtering dude. sorry. and buffer with what? buffering with inorganics increases corrosion rates. > Antifreeze is a hazardous waste > which must be properly disposed of - and it is also not inexpensive. c'mon clare. it's $7 or $8 for a gallon. anyone not prepared to spend that on an accurate diagnosis needs more than their gaskets testing. > Recycling the coolant is the responsible thing to do - as well as the > economical thing to do. that might be something available to those working in large shops, but not the man on the street. besides, the "environmental hazard" is primarily to biosystems like dogs who like the sweet taste. while more so, its toxicity is not unlike that of alcohol. mmm. > > When an engine warms up, the parts expand and the clearances decrease, > causing many minor coolant leaks, both internal and external, to > temporarily stop with the engine at operating temperatures. not head gaskets - other way around. restricted linear expansion causes them to bow in the middle - hence warping. that's why it's usually the middle pistons where the leakage is evident. and if you can see bubbling when cold, the gasket is already pretty far gone. [maybe your experience is skewed - most shops only get to see late stage leakage since owners usually never notice early and thus never take their vehicles in.] >> >> >>>> >>>> >>>>> It is detecting CO2 by bubbling air from the cooling system >>>>> through the reagent (which you have correctly identified) and if the >>>>> air contains CO2 it is absorbed in the water the reagent is disolved >>>>> in, forming carbonic acid, and changing the colour of the fluid. >>>>> >>>>> From your reference- >>>>> Bromothymol blue is mostly used in measuring substances that would >>>>> have relatively low acidic or basic levels (near a neutral pH). It is >>>>> often used in managing the pH of pools and fish tanks, and for >>>>> measuring the presence of carbonic acid in a liquid. >>>>> >>>>> A common demonstration of BTB's pH indicator properties involves >>>>> exhaling through a tube into a neutral solution of BTB. As carbon >>>>> dioxide is absorbed from the breath into the solution, forming >>>>> carbonic acid, the solution changes color from green to yellow. Thus, >>>>> BTB is commonly used in middle school science classes to demonstrate >>>>> that the more that muscles are used, the greater the CO2 output. >>>> >>>> it's also used for testing radiator leaks at $50 per quart as opposed to $5. >>> >>> Nothing stopping you (or me) from buying it for $5 instead of $50 and >>> still using it the right way - to tetect CO2, not coolant pH. >> >> a decrease in coolant pH is /caused/ by CO2. i thought the cites were >> self explanatory. would you like more explanation? >> >> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> From the instructios for the leak detector kit- >>>>> To do the test, add the blue detector fluid to the (block-tester) >>>>> plastic container according to the directions, and place it onto the >>>>> radiator filler neck. The squeeze bulb is placed on top of the >>>>> reservoir and squeezed repeatedly (Some block testers, have a tube >>>>> that connects to a vacuum line instead of a squeeze bulb). Squeezing >>>>> the bulb will draw air from the radiator through the test fluid. Block >>>>> tester fluid is normally blue. Exhaust gases in the cooling system >>>>> will change the color of the fluid to yellow, indicating a combustion >>>>> leak. If the fluid remains blue, exhaust gases were not present during >>>>> the test. The vehicle should be started and at operating temperature >>>>> before performing the test. Vehicles with head gasket leaks may >>>>> overheat, and purge hot water and steam out of the radiator. Perform >>>>> this test, at your own risk, and do not do the test, unless you are >>>>> experienced and are wearing clothing and equipment to protect you from >>>>> burns, or injury. >>> > -- nomina rutrum rutrum
From: Tegger on 7 Jun 2010 09:38 =?iso-2022-jp?q?Hachiroku_=1B$B%O%A%m%=2F=1B=28B?= <Trueno(a)e86.GTS> wrote in news:3vZOn.123160$gv4.64975(a)newsfe09.iad: > On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 19:43:59 -0400, clare wrote: > >> >> It means PARK IT AND PULL THE HEAD. > > That's what I thought you were going to say... > > > > Delay this fix and you'll get a nice crusty spot of corrosion on the block where the breach is. At that point, the new gasket may or may not hold; it's a crapshoot. -- Tegger
From: Hachiroku ハチロク on 7 Jun 2010 14:49 On Mon, 07 Jun 2010 13:38:49 +0000, Tegger wrote: > =?iso-2022-jp?q?Hachiroku_=1B$B%O%A%m%=2F=1B=28B?= <Trueno(a)e86.GTS> wrote > in news:3vZOn.123160$gv4.64975(a)newsfe09.iad: > >> On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 19:43:59 -0400, clare wrote: >> >> > >>> It means PARK IT AND PULL THE HEAD. >> >> That's what I thought you were going to say... >> >> >> >> >> > > Delay this fix and you'll get a nice crusty spot of corrosion on the block > where the breach is. At that point, the new gasket may or may not hold; > it's a crapshoot. Boy, you two are just FULL of wonderful news! The car has been sitting since Thursday. I have a very small garage so I'm looking to see if a friend of mine has a space I can use. How long can I wait before ripping it apart? Once I get it apart, is there any suggested limit where I need to get it back together by? I understand "ASAP" is the best, but...
From: clare on 7 Jun 2010 17:37
On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 20:59:46 -0700, jim beam <me(a)privacy.net> wrote: >On 06/06/2010 07:51 PM, clare(a)snyder.on.ca wrote: >> On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 17:00:19 -0700, jim beam<me(a)privacy.net> wrote: >> >>> On 06/06/2010 04:43 PM, clare(a)snyder.on.ca wrote: >>>> On Sat, 05 Jun 2010 22:50:58 -0700, jim beam<me(a)privacy.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>>> OK - I checket out your reference - it is NOT checking the pH of the >>>>>> coolant. >>>>> >>>>> you can use it either way. if the system is bubbling, then the gasket >>>>> is leaking. and don't need a reagent to tell you that! >>>> >>>> Not necessarily true. >>>> If you have air trapped in the system it will bubble like crazy as it >>>> warms up, and sometimes even blow all the antifreeze back out - >>>> without there being ANY leakage in the system >>> >>> ok, so i'm guilty of presuming that we're not talking novices here and >>> that we know how to bleed a cooling system. >> >> And they don't know how to check for a damaged head gasket - RIGHT!!! >> Bleeding the cooling system requires different procedures on different >> cars. Some can be extremely difficult to "burp". Ever bleed the >> cooling system on a Renault R12???? >> And the Supra M engine is a BIT more difficult than some, although >> much simpler than many others. On some you need to remove a hose - and >> different hoses on different vehicles. Some need filling through the >> expansion bottle - all kinds of different ways - >> >> We ARE talking to novices in this group > >well /i'm/ not. > > >>> >>> >>>>> >>>>> otoh, if you use the reagent to test the coolant, and you can, then you >>>>> have your result. >>>> >>>> But if the PH of the coolant is "off" in the first place, >>> >>> "off"??? not unless you've got a beer pump attached to your cooling >>> system. >> >> In many cases a 50% mixture of tap water and glycol is very high in pH >> - and depending on the water source, it can be very low. Low PH (acid >> condition) causes corrosion in the cooling system. High pH >> (alkalinity) causes scale build-up in the cooling system. Correct >> buffering of the coolant prevents both problems - and ONLY a correctly >> buffered system can accurately be checked for leaks by testing the >> coolant with Bromothymol Blue. > >two things: > >1. you shouldn't be filling the cooling system with tap water in the >first place. it should be de-ionized/distilled. for precisely the >contamination/corrosion reasons you cite. NEVER use de-ionized water in a cooling system. Distilled is great - and most tap water is acceptable. Virtually every dealership in the country uses tap water. > >2. who is supposed to be buffering these solutions in the first place? >and for what conditions??? certainly not the end user. this is not a >"one size fits all" situation. > The garage when it is installed by a garage. I have never had the pH come out where it belongs with a 50% mix of antifreeze and ANY water. Many times it's been close, but USUALLY the pH is too high. > >> On the other hand, using it in a "sniff tester" as described to >> detect CO2 in the air coming off the top of the rad you can accurately >> determine if there is a combustion leak into the cooling system, >> regardless of the pH of the system before the test. > >yes in theory, but in practice, only in the later stages of gasket >leakage. at which point, it's pretty danged obvious what's going on anyway. > > >>> >>> >>>> the reagent >>>> will show you have a leak when you don't, using it your way. >>>> >>>> Using it the right way, it won't lie. >>> >>> not true. early stage head gasket can persist for quite some time. one >>> of my cars took roughly a year and ~30k miles between the overheating >>> event that initiated failure and the exhaust venting into the coolant >>> badly enough to be visible. and even then, it was only a small amount, >>> and only when hot, not cold. all this would have been resolved with a >>> pH test early on. if you're worried about a false positive, change the >>> coolant, and re-test a couple of weeks later. >> >> I'd be much more worried about a false negative > >i'm not. just change the coolant. it's a few bucks. A false negative on many cars will cause engine damage before you realize you have a problem. ONE OUNCE of glycol in the crankcase of a Ford 3.8 can trash the bearings. > > >> - and leakage on a >> COLD engine is much more common than on a hot engine, > >untrue. early stage leakage is usually only manifest when hot. we want >to catch this thing as quickly as possible. > I've been a mechanic since 1969 - and I've seen more engines leak coolant only when cold than only when hot. The only reason you see it more when hot is because when hot the system is under pressure. Pressurize the cold system and generally it leaks more, and sooner, than when hot. > >> when it is >> intermittent.Starting with a cold engine, with the sniffer tester >> connected and run untill warm under a light load (fast idle in drive >> on an automatic, or A/C on and headlights on high beam) will catch >> even a small elusive leak with fair reliability. > >indeed, but later stages. in which case, bubbles in the coolant should >be making the problem obvious anyway. > > >> And changing the antifreeze to resolve the uncertainty is totally >> un-necessary (even in your scenario), Antifreeze is routinely >> "reconditioned" by running ithrough a filter and the pH corrected by >> the addition of buffering agents. > >you can't recover ethylene glycol by filtering dude. sorry. and buffer >with what? buffering with inorganics increases corrosion rates. It is done ALL THE TIME. The coolant is filtered and a buffering agent is added to bring the pH back to spec. > > >> Antifreeze is a hazardous waste >> which must be properly disposed of - and it is also not inexpensive. > >c'mon clare. it's $7 or $8 for a gallon. anyone not prepared to spend >that on an accurate diagnosis needs more than their gaskets testing. Up here it's generally $14 per gallon. to the man on the street. > > >> Recycling the coolant is the responsible thing to do - as well as the >> economical thing to do. > >that might be something available to those working in large shops, but >not the man on the street. besides, the "environmental hazard" is >primarily to biosystems like dogs who like the sweet taste. while more >so, its toxicity is not unlike that of alcohol. mmm. > > >> >> When an engine warms up, the parts expand and the clearances decrease, >> causing many minor coolant leaks, both internal and external, to >> temporarily stop with the engine at operating temperatures. > >not head gaskets - other way around. restricted linear expansion causes >them to bow in the middle - hence warping. that's why it's usually the >middle pistons where the leakage is evident. and if you can see >bubbling when cold, the gasket is already pretty far gone. [maybe your >experience is skewed - most shops only get to see late stage leakage >since owners usually never notice early and thus never take their >vehicles in.] My experience may well be skewed a bit, because I've wrenched professionally for many years. (with many of those years on Toyotas) Many head gasket leaks have absolutely nothing to do with restricted linear expansion and bowing, and everything to do with gasket material failure, corrosion, head bolt torque, and many other causes. On the "M" engine, in particular, early head gasket failures were attributed to shearing of the gasket because of the large differential in expansion rates between the aluminum head and the cast head. Toyota got that problem pretty well sorted out by the time the 4M engine was introduced. Most of the 3M engines were also good - but the 2M (Early Crown ) engines had a significant head gasket problem. From 4M on up, the ONLY head gasket failures I ever saw were due to uverheating from blown hoses, leaky rads, and sticking aftermarker thermostats. Our dealership saw just about every vehicle we serviced a minimum of twice a year - and the vast majority 3 or 4 times a year. We did not have many failures of any sort. > > >>> >>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> It is detecting CO2 by bubbling air from the cooling system >>>>>> through the reagent (which you have correctly identified) and if the >>>>>> air contains CO2 it is absorbed in the water the reagent is disolved >>>>>> in, forming carbonic acid, and changing the colour of the fluid. >>>>>> >>>>>> From your reference- >>>>>> Bromothymol blue is mostly used in measuring substances that would >>>>>> have relatively low acidic or basic levels (near a neutral pH). It is >>>>>> often used in managing the pH of pools and fish tanks, and for >>>>>> measuring the presence of carbonic acid in a liquid. >>>>>> >>>>>> A common demonstration of BTB's pH indicator properties involves >>>>>> exhaling through a tube into a neutral solution of BTB. As carbon >>>>>> dioxide is absorbed from the breath into the solution, forming >>>>>> carbonic acid, the solution changes color from green to yellow. Thus, >>>>>> BTB is commonly used in middle school science classes to demonstrate >>>>>> that the more that muscles are used, the greater the CO2 output. >>>>> >>>>> it's also used for testing radiator leaks at $50 per quart as opposed to $5. >>>> >>>> Nothing stopping you (or me) from buying it for $5 instead of $50 and >>>> still using it the right way - to tetect CO2, not coolant pH. >>> >>> a decrease in coolant pH is /caused/ by CO2. i thought the cites were >>> self explanatory. would you like more explanation? >>> >>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> From the instructios for the leak detector kit- >>>>>> To do the test, add the blue detector fluid to the (block-tester) >>>>>> plastic container according to the directions, and place it onto the >>>>>> radiator filler neck. The squeeze bulb is placed on top of the >>>>>> reservoir and squeezed repeatedly (Some block testers, have a tube >>>>>> that connects to a vacuum line instead of a squeeze bulb). Squeezing >>>>>> the bulb will draw air from the radiator through the test fluid. Block >>>>>> tester fluid is normally blue. Exhaust gases in the cooling system >>>>>> will change the color of the fluid to yellow, indicating a combustion >>>>>> leak. If the fluid remains blue, exhaust gases were not present during >>>>>> the test. The vehicle should be started and at operating temperature >>>>>> before performing the test. Vehicles with head gasket leaks may >>>>>> overheat, and purge hot water and steam out of the radiator. Perform >>>>>> this test, at your own risk, and do not do the test, unless you are >>>>>> experienced and are wearing clothing and equipment to protect you from >>>>>> burns, or injury. >>>> >> |