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From: Hachiroku ハチロク on 6 Jun 2010 15:37 On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 17:05:51 +0000, Tegger wrote: > =?iso-2022-jp?q?Hachiroku_=1B$B%O%A%m%=2F=1B=28B?= <Trueno(a)e86.GTS> wrote > in news:iLFOn.137251$0M5.33520(a)newsfe07.iad: > >> On Sat, 05 Jun 2010 02:52:32 +0000, Tegger wrote: >> >> >>> So, uh, have you taken a whiff of the expansion bottle yet? It only >>> takes seconds to do that, and the result could change the entire >>> tendency of this thread... >> >> So I took it out of the garage, moved it to my work apron out back, had >> it running for about 7 minutes. Opened the bottle and took a good >> whiff... >> >> What does it mean if it smells like exhaust...? :( >> >> >> >> >> > > Nothing good. That's what I thought you were going to say...
From: clare on 6 Jun 2010 19:43 On Sat, 05 Jun 2010 22:50:58 -0700, jim beam <me(a)privacy.net> wrote: >> OK - I checket out your reference - it is NOT checking the pH of the >> coolant. > >you can use it either way. if the system is bubbling, then the gasket >is leaking. and don't need a reagent to tell you that! Not necessarily true. If you have air trapped in the system it will bubble like crazy as it warms up, and sometimes even blow all the antifreeze back out - without there being ANY leakage in the system > >otoh, if you use the reagent to test the coolant, and you can, then you >have your result. But if the PH of the coolant is "off" in the first place, the reagent will show you have a leak when you don't, using it your way. Using it the right way, it won't lie. > > >> It is detecting CO2 by bubbling air from the cooling system >> through the reagent (which you have correctly identified) and if the >> air contains CO2 it is absorbed in the water the reagent is disolved >> in, forming carbonic acid, and changing the colour of the fluid. >> >> From your reference- >> Bromothymol blue is mostly used in measuring substances that would >> have relatively low acidic or basic levels (near a neutral pH). It is >> often used in managing the pH of pools and fish tanks, and for >> measuring the presence of carbonic acid in a liquid. >> >> A common demonstration of BTB's pH indicator properties involves >> exhaling through a tube into a neutral solution of BTB. As carbon >> dioxide is absorbed from the breath into the solution, forming >> carbonic acid, the solution changes color from green to yellow. Thus, >> BTB is commonly used in middle school science classes to demonstrate >> that the more that muscles are used, the greater the CO2 output. > >it's also used for testing radiator leaks at $50 per quart as opposed to $5. Nothing stopping you (or me) from buying it for $5 instead of $50 and still using it the right way - to tetect CO2, not coolant pH. > > >> >> From the instructios for the leak detector kit- >> To do the test, add the blue detector fluid to the (block-tester) >> plastic container according to the directions, and place it onto the >> radiator filler neck. The squeeze bulb is placed on top of the >> reservoir and squeezed repeatedly (Some block testers, have a tube >> that connects to a vacuum line instead of a squeeze bulb). Squeezing >> the bulb will draw air from the radiator through the test fluid. Block >> tester fluid is normally blue. Exhaust gases in the cooling system >> will change the color of the fluid to yellow, indicating a combustion >> leak. If the fluid remains blue, exhaust gases were not present during >> the test. The vehicle should be started and at operating temperature >> before performing the test. Vehicles with head gasket leaks may >> overheat, and purge hot water and steam out of the radiator. Perform >> this test, at your own risk, and do not do the test, unless you are >> experienced and are wearing clothing and equipment to protect you from >> burns, or injury.
From: clare on 6 Jun 2010 19:43 On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 15:37:30 -0400, Hachiroku ???? <Trueno(a)e86.GTS> wrote: >On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 17:05:51 +0000, Tegger wrote: > >> =?iso-2022-jp?q?Hachiroku_=1B$B%O%A%m%=2F=1B=28B?= <Trueno(a)e86.GTS> wrote >> in news:iLFOn.137251$0M5.33520(a)newsfe07.iad: >> >>> On Sat, 05 Jun 2010 02:52:32 +0000, Tegger wrote: >>> >>> >>>> So, uh, have you taken a whiff of the expansion bottle yet? It only >>>> takes seconds to do that, and the result could change the entire >>>> tendency of this thread... >>> >>> So I took it out of the garage, moved it to my work apron out back, had >>> it running for about 7 minutes. Opened the bottle and took a good >>> whiff... >>> >>> What does it mean if it smells like exhaust...? :( >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> Nothing good. > >That's what I thought you were going to say... > > It means PARK IT AND PULL THE HEAD.
From: jim beam on 6 Jun 2010 20:00 On 06/06/2010 04:43 PM, clare(a)snyder.on.ca wrote: > On Sat, 05 Jun 2010 22:50:58 -0700, jim beam<me(a)privacy.net> wrote: > >>> OK - I checket out your reference - it is NOT checking the pH of the >>> coolant. >> >> you can use it either way. if the system is bubbling, then the gasket >> is leaking. and don't need a reagent to tell you that! > > Not necessarily true. > If you have air trapped in the system it will bubble like crazy as it > warms up, and sometimes even blow all the antifreeze back out - > without there being ANY leakage in the system ok, so i'm guilty of presuming that we're not talking novices here and that we know how to bleed a cooling system. >> >> otoh, if you use the reagent to test the coolant, and you can, then you >> have your result. > > But if the PH of the coolant is "off" in the first place, "off"??? not unless you've got a beer pump attached to your cooling system. > the reagent > will show you have a leak when you don't, using it your way. > > Using it the right way, it won't lie. not true. early stage head gasket can persist for quite some time. one of my cars took roughly a year and ~30k miles between the overheating event that initiated failure and the exhaust venting into the coolant badly enough to be visible. and even then, it was only a small amount, and only when hot, not cold. all this would have been resolved with a pH test early on. if you're worried about a false positive, change the coolant, and re-test a couple of weeks later. >> >> >>> It is detecting CO2 by bubbling air from the cooling system >>> through the reagent (which you have correctly identified) and if the >>> air contains CO2 it is absorbed in the water the reagent is disolved >>> in, forming carbonic acid, and changing the colour of the fluid. >>> >>> From your reference- >>> Bromothymol blue is mostly used in measuring substances that would >>> have relatively low acidic or basic levels (near a neutral pH). It is >>> often used in managing the pH of pools and fish tanks, and for >>> measuring the presence of carbonic acid in a liquid. >>> >>> A common demonstration of BTB's pH indicator properties involves >>> exhaling through a tube into a neutral solution of BTB. As carbon >>> dioxide is absorbed from the breath into the solution, forming >>> carbonic acid, the solution changes color from green to yellow. Thus, >>> BTB is commonly used in middle school science classes to demonstrate >>> that the more that muscles are used, the greater the CO2 output. >> >> it's also used for testing radiator leaks at $50 per quart as opposed to $5. > > Nothing stopping you (or me) from buying it for $5 instead of $50 and > still using it the right way - to tetect CO2, not coolant pH. a decrease in coolant pH is /caused/ by CO₂. i thought the cites were self explanatory. would you like more explanation? >> >> >>> >>> From the instructios for the leak detector kit- >>> To do the test, add the blue detector fluid to the (block-tester) >>> plastic container according to the directions, and place it onto the >>> radiator filler neck. The squeeze bulb is placed on top of the >>> reservoir and squeezed repeatedly (Some block testers, have a tube >>> that connects to a vacuum line instead of a squeeze bulb). Squeezing >>> the bulb will draw air from the radiator through the test fluid. Block >>> tester fluid is normally blue. Exhaust gases in the cooling system >>> will change the color of the fluid to yellow, indicating a combustion >>> leak. If the fluid remains blue, exhaust gases were not present during >>> the test. The vehicle should be started and at operating temperature >>> before performing the test. Vehicles with head gasket leaks may >>> overheat, and purge hot water and steam out of the radiator. Perform >>> this test, at your own risk, and do not do the test, unless you are >>> experienced and are wearing clothing and equipment to protect you from >>> burns, or injury. > -- nomina rutrum rutrum
From: clare on 6 Jun 2010 22:51
On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 17:00:19 -0700, jim beam <me(a)privacy.net> wrote: >On 06/06/2010 04:43 PM, clare(a)snyder.on.ca wrote: >> On Sat, 05 Jun 2010 22:50:58 -0700, jim beam<me(a)privacy.net> wrote: >> >>>> OK - I checket out your reference - it is NOT checking the pH of the >>>> coolant. >>> >>> you can use it either way. if the system is bubbling, then the gasket >>> is leaking. and don't need a reagent to tell you that! >> >> Not necessarily true. >> If you have air trapped in the system it will bubble like crazy as it >> warms up, and sometimes even blow all the antifreeze back out - >> without there being ANY leakage in the system > >ok, so i'm guilty of presuming that we're not talking novices here and >that we know how to bleed a cooling system. And they don't know how to check for a damaged head gasket - RIGHT!!! Bleeding the cooling system requires different procedures on different cars. Some can be extremely difficult to "burp". Ever bleed the cooling system on a Renault R12???? And the Supra M engine is a BIT more difficult than some, although much simpler than many others. On some you need to remove a hose - and different hoses on different vehicles. Some need filling through the expansion bottle - all kinds of different ways - We ARE talking to novices in this group > > >>> >>> otoh, if you use the reagent to test the coolant, and you can, then you >>> have your result. >> >> But if the PH of the coolant is "off" in the first place, > >"off"??? not unless you've got a beer pump attached to your cooling >system. In many cases a 50% mixture of tap water and glycol is very high in pH - and depending on the water source, it can be very low. Low PH (acid condition) causes corrosion in the cooling system. High pH (alkalinity) causes scale build-up in the cooling system. Correct buffering of the coolant prevents both problems - and ONLY a correctly buffered system can accurately be checked for leaks by testing the coolant with Bromothymol Blue. On the other hand, using it in a "sniff tester" as described to detect CO2 in the air coming off the top of the rad you can accurately determine if there is a combustion leak into the cooling system, regardless of the pH of the system before the test. > > >> the reagent >> will show you have a leak when you don't, using it your way. >> >> Using it the right way, it won't lie. > >not true. early stage head gasket can persist for quite some time. one >of my cars took roughly a year and ~30k miles between the overheating >event that initiated failure and the exhaust venting into the coolant >badly enough to be visible. and even then, it was only a small amount, >and only when hot, not cold. all this would have been resolved with a >pH test early on. if you're worried about a false positive, change the >coolant, and re-test a couple of weeks later. I'd be much more worried about a false negative - and leakage on a COLD engine is much more common than on a hot engine, when it is intermittent.Starting with a cold engine, with the sniffer tester connected and run untill warm under a light load (fast idle in drive on an automatic, or A/C on and headlights on high beam) will catch even a small elusive leak with fair reliability. And changing the antifreeze to resolve the uncertainty is totally un-necessary (even in your scenario), Antifreeze is routinely "reconditioned" by running ithrough a filter and the pH corrected by the addition of buffering agents. Antifreeze is a hazardous waste which must be properly disposed of - and it is also not inexpensive. Recycling the coolant is the responsible thing to do - as well as the economical thing to do. When an engine warms up, the parts expand and the clearances decrease, causing many minor coolant leaks, both internal and external, to temporarily stop with the engine at operating temperatures. > > >>> >>> >>>> It is detecting CO2 by bubbling air from the cooling system >>>> through the reagent (which you have correctly identified) and if the >>>> air contains CO2 it is absorbed in the water the reagent is disolved >>>> in, forming carbonic acid, and changing the colour of the fluid. >>>> >>>> From your reference- >>>> Bromothymol blue is mostly used in measuring substances that would >>>> have relatively low acidic or basic levels (near a neutral pH). It is >>>> often used in managing the pH of pools and fish tanks, and for >>>> measuring the presence of carbonic acid in a liquid. >>>> >>>> A common demonstration of BTB's pH indicator properties involves >>>> exhaling through a tube into a neutral solution of BTB. As carbon >>>> dioxide is absorbed from the breath into the solution, forming >>>> carbonic acid, the solution changes color from green to yellow. Thus, >>>> BTB is commonly used in middle school science classes to demonstrate >>>> that the more that muscles are used, the greater the CO2 output. >>> >>> it's also used for testing radiator leaks at $50 per quart as opposed to $5. >> >> Nothing stopping you (or me) from buying it for $5 instead of $50 and >> still using it the right way - to tetect CO2, not coolant pH. > >a decrease in coolant pH is /caused/ by CO2. i thought the cites were >self explanatory. would you like more explanation? > > >>> >>> >>>> >>>> From the instructios for the leak detector kit- >>>> To do the test, add the blue detector fluid to the (block-tester) >>>> plastic container according to the directions, and place it onto the >>>> radiator filler neck. The squeeze bulb is placed on top of the >>>> reservoir and squeezed repeatedly (Some block testers, have a tube >>>> that connects to a vacuum line instead of a squeeze bulb). Squeezing >>>> the bulb will draw air from the radiator through the test fluid. Block >>>> tester fluid is normally blue. Exhaust gases in the cooling system >>>> will change the color of the fluid to yellow, indicating a combustion >>>> leak. If the fluid remains blue, exhaust gases were not present during >>>> the test. The vehicle should be started and at operating temperature >>>> before performing the test. Vehicles with head gasket leaks may >>>> overheat, and purge hot water and steam out of the radiator. Perform >>>> this test, at your own risk, and do not do the test, unless you are >>>> experienced and are wearing clothing and equipment to protect you from >>>> burns, or injury. >> |