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From: NorthTxPriusClub on 14 Aug 2008 07:30
On Aug 12, 8:09 pm, David Kelly <n4...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> a...(a)aol.com wrote:
> > link here....http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080810/ap_on_bi_ge/tailpipe_power_2
>
> Oooh! 10% improvement! Whoopie! Lets throw *lots* of government funding
> at that project!
>
> I like this one better:http://www.theonion.com/content/node/83979,
> submitted it to toyota-pr...(a)yahoogroups.com but was rejected by the
> list censors. No sense of humor.

i think you totally missed the point it is a simple (and likely
relatively inexpensive) device that can pull a 10% improvement from
thin air. It looks like it may even be possible to do a retrofit on
existing vehicles.

If this thing works and can be fitted to most the vehicles in America
it alone would provide the equivalent of ANWR and the continental
shelves could in ten years.

I can't believe I am hearing that sort of dismissive comment coming
from a Prius board.

It's time EVERYONE realized there will be no gun with a single silver
bullet to solve our energy problem but if we are lucky there may be a
silver shotgun. This idea is but one pellet from that shotgun.
From: David Kelly on 14 Aug 2008 22:55
NorthTxPriusClub wrote:
>
> i think you totally missed the point it is a simple (and likely
> relatively inexpensive) device that can pull a 10% improvement from
> thin air. It looks like it may even be possible to do a retrofit on
> existing vehicles.

A 10% improvement is trivial, there are many inexpensive proven ways to
get a measly 10%. Narrower tires. Higher tire pressure (the Obama
solution). Smaller engine. Drafting the vehicle in front of you.

One of the most effective and inexpensive means is the Chicken Egg and
Duct Tape solution. Duct tape a chicken egg to the gas pedal and don't
break it while driving.

However the referenced device only achieves 5% on a Suburban, with a
*goal* of 10%. I was being generous by giving credit for the full 10%.

Something they seem to be forgetting is that when one cools the exhaust
pipe the engine efficiency goes down. Hot tip among racers is to wrap
exhausts to keep them hot.

I think a thermoelectric generator would be more practical on the radiator.

Years ago I worked on a prototype being proposed to the National Guard
for their many lightly used Diesel trucks, many dating back to WW-II
surplus. The proposal used a thermoelectric generator and burner cooled
by the vehicle engine's cooling system. The electricity was to charge
the 48V battery every month or so. The heat would serve as a block
warmer for starting the engine in cold temperatures.

I was only an engineer on the project so I don't really know why it was
rejected other than the impression I got was much the same as what
happened when the automatic dishwasher was introduced. Housewives
actually *liked* the ritual of washing dishes after a meal. They liked
directing and participating in a coordinated family task. It seemed the
National Guard liked sending guys out in the fields every month to start
the trucks. That is was good practice and training for diagnosing
problems an keeping the old things running. That we were asking for
money for a product that eliminated what they thought was a useful exercise.

As I remember the thermoelectric generator was not cheap, and it didn't
generate much electricity relative to the heat it was provided.
From: Chas Gill on 15 Aug 2008 05:42

"David Kelly" <n4hhe(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:abeb9$48a4f014$d8ba94f9$6613(a)KNOLOGY.NET...
> NorthTxPriusClub wrote:
>>
>> i think you totally missed the point it is a simple (and likely
>> relatively inexpensive) device that can pull a 10% improvement from
>> thin air. It looks like it may even be possible to do a retrofit on
>> existing vehicles.
>
> A 10% improvement is trivial, there are many inexpensive proven ways to
> get a measly 10%. Narrower tires. Higher tire pressure (the Obama
> solution). Smaller engine. Drafting the vehicle in front of you.
>
> One of the most effective and inexpensive means is the Chicken Egg and
> Duct Tape solution. Duct tape a chicken egg to the gas pedal and don't
> break it while driving.
>
> However the referenced device only achieves 5% on a Suburban, with a
> *goal* of 10%. I was being generous by giving credit for the full 10%.
>
> Something they seem to be forgetting is that when one cools the exhaust
> pipe the engine efficiency goes down. Hot tip among racers is to wrap
> exhausts to keep them hot.
>
> I think a thermoelectric generator would be more practical on the
> radiator.
>
> Years ago I worked on a prototype being proposed to the National Guard for
> their many lightly used Diesel trucks, many dating back to WW-II surplus.
> The proposal used a thermoelectric generator and burner cooled by the
> vehicle engine's cooling system. The electricity was to charge the 48V
> battery every month or so. The heat would serve as a block warmer for
> starting the engine in cold temperatures.
>
> I was only an engineer on the project so I don't really know why it was
> rejected other than the impression I got was much the same as what
> happened when the automatic dishwasher was introduced. Housewives actually
> *liked* the ritual of washing dishes after a meal. They liked directing
> and participating in a coordinated family task. It seemed the National
> Guard liked sending guys out in the fields every month to start the
> trucks. That is was good practice and training for diagnosing problems an
> keeping the old things running. That we were asking for money for a
> product that eliminated what they thought was a useful exercise.
>
> As I remember the thermoelectric generator was not cheap, and it didn't
> generate much electricity relative to the heat it was provided.

The North American Prius (I understand) has, effectively, a block warmer, in
that it stores hot engine coolant in a thermally insulated vessel and pumps
it back on restart. I am also given to understand that this might be to
comply with certain anti-pollution legislation in some States, but it still
seems like a very good idea in terms of fuel efficiency. Why the hell it
isn't included in the European version beats me (along with the lack of
heaters on the door mirrors). The Japanese seem to have some strange ideas
about the European climate.........

Chas

From: David Kelly on 15 Aug 2008 21:02
Michelle Steiner wrote:
> In article <abeb9$48a4f014$d8ba94f9$6613(a)KNOLOGY.NET>,
> David Kelly <n4hhe(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> A 10% improvement is trivial, there are many inexpensive proven ways
>> to get a measly 10%. Narrower tires. Higher tire pressure (the Obama
>> solution).
>
> Well, first of all, it is not the Obama solution; it is a solution
> recommended by US Government agencies and various automotive groups.
> Secondly, it's not "higher tire pressure"; it is "proper tire pressure".

Oh, so if I lower my Prius tire pressures from 42/40 to the "proper"
pressure Toyota specifies then according to Obama I would improve MPG?

Lowering tire pressure never improves MPG. Once again I was being
generous with giving credit.

Obama is being his usual wussie self, afraid to color outside the lines
someone else has drawn. Would be funny if it wasn't so sad watching him
try to run in front of the parade, pretending to lead the parade, while
looking back more than ahead afraid he won't "lead" down the street the
parade is headed. Most recent example: Georgia vs USSR.

Rice For President in '08!
From: David Kelly on 15 Aug 2008 21:16
Chas Gill wrote:
>
> The North American Prius (I understand) has, effectively, a block
> warmer, in that it stores hot engine coolant in a thermally insulated
> vessel and pumps it back on restart.

Newer NHW20's have the thermos bottle. None have a "block heater" as
Original Equipment (OE) from Toyota.

> I am also given to understand that
> this might be to comply with certain anti-pollution legislation in some
> States,

No, has nothing to do with pollution control.

> but it still seems like a very good idea in terms of fuel
> efficiency.

"It doesn't hurt anything, much." It is added complexity. It is added
weight. It didn't improve things enough to show on the EPA fuel economy
ratings.

> Why the hell it isn't included in the European version
> beats me (along with the lack of heaters on the door mirrors). The
> Japanese seem to have some strange ideas about the European
> climate.........

Europeans have some strange ideas about the North American climate.
German engineers at VW had a fit when Americans were allowed to select
the A/C gear for the then-new 1985 VW Golf. The car was to be produced
in North America so it stood to reason to use domestic A/C hardware.
What shocked the Germans was the North American unit had about twice the
capacity as fitted in Europe. Americans loved it. I loved the A/C in my
1986 VW Golf. Otherwise the car assembled in Westmoreland, PA, fit
together worse than any junkyard repair I have ever seen.
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