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From: geronimo on 7 Sep 2007 21:58
No, it is at full batt voltage until I go from ON to START.... then
because there is resistance going back to the battery, it drops to 10
volts. That is why I know it is not the IGN. switch contact that is
bad, it is upstream from the ign. switch. As I recall, there are three
fuses or fusible links that are mounted right on the pos. terminal of
the battery. Obviously starter power has to be going through one of
these. Maybe that is where bad connection is?
Geronimo


On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 18:39:13 -0700, johngdole(a)hotmail.com wrote:

>Also, when you measure 10V on the input of the ignition switch, the
>switch is at OFF, right?
>
>
>
>On Sep 7, 11:07 am, geronimo <Jam...(a)grandecom.net> wrote:
>> Its an 1988 Camry 4 cyl station wagon. Sometimes the starter works
>> fine, sometimes there is just a click. Been like this for the 2 years
>> I have had the car. There is an intmt. voltage drop of about 2 volts
>> in the wiring for the starter control terminal. Whenever it fails, I
>> just jump from the battery direct to the starter control terminal, and
>> it never fails to start then. Thought it might be a bad neutral
>> start safety switch, but I removed it without getting off the PARK
>> position and ohmed it out----- it is not resistive at all. So I
>> thought it must be a bad ignition switch. When it has failed I am
>> reading only 10 volts at the black wire with white stripe, which I
>> know feeds power to the starter control terminal. No wonder....a 2
>> volt drop to 10 volts would indeed give you a 'click'/no-start. But
>> I found that the terminal that is on the *input* side (toward the
>> battery) of the starter engage contact (of ignition switch) is also
>> dropping to 10 volts! This is a solid brown wire. So I have a problem
>> ahead of the iginition switch even. Maybe it is a bad relay or
>> connection to a relay in that black relay box on the drivers side
>> fender well? I can't tell where this wire goes to, as all the ign
>> switch wires just go into a bundle in the steering column.
>> THe simple fix is just to run a new wire from some point that is
>> hot whenever the key is turned to the ON position....but I'd rather
>> track it down and fix properly than do a band-aid fix. I can't find
>> my Camry manual at the moment, and even when I had it, the wiring
>> diagrams didn't correspond too well to what I actually have.
>> If any one can give me a heads' up where that brown wire (the one
>> feeding power through the ign switch to energize the starter) is
>> connected to, I'd appreciate it. That is where my bad connection is.
>>
>> Thanks, geronimo
>

From: johngdole on 7 Sep 2007 23:00
Well, the only schematics I could find are the ones on AutoZone for
the 1988 Camry. And that one doesn't show there is a Starter Relay!! I
am surprised because of the amount of current going to the starter
(250-400 amps for 97+ models).

So if you have full battery voltage at the IGN SWITCH until you turn
it to START, then it's probably the voltage drop by the starter.

You can do a test by jumpering not from the battery but from the INPUT
of the IGN SWITCH to the starter, PROVIDED THAT your car connects
directly from the IGN SWITCH to the starter without going through a
relay (otherwise it's a over-current for the wires).

If the test succeeded in starting, then you know the current drop
across the IGN SWITCH is too much. But I have to be absolutely certain
that the model year doesn't use a relay before putting all that
current through the brown wire you mentioned.

Can you verify the existence of a starter relay?





On Sep 7, 6:58 pm, geronimo <Jam...(a)grandecom.net> wrote:
> No, it is at full batt voltage until I go from ON to START.... then
> because there is resistance going back to the battery, it drops to 10
> volts. That is why I know it is not the IGN. switch contact that is
> bad, it is upstream from the ign. switch. As I recall, there are three
> fuses or fusible links that are mounted right on the pos. terminal of
> the battery. Obviously starter power has to be going through one of
> these. Maybe that is where bad connection is?
> Geronimo

From: johngdole on 7 Sep 2007 23:08
According to Figure 15 of 87-91 Autozone diagram: the (B/W) wire from
the IGN SWITCH goes into the Neutral Safety Switch and comes out a (B)
wire.

*IF* there is no starter relay, and the starter works jumpering from
IGN SWITCH to starter; then the next step would be jumpering from (B)
of Neutral Safety Switch to starter.

You know, I didn't realize the 88 was designed to carry starting
current on these wires!! So better make sure before the tests.



On Sep 7, 6:58 pm, geronimo <Jam...(a)grandecom.net> wrote:
> No, it is at full batt voltage until I go from ON to START.... then
> because there is resistance going back to the battery, it drops to 10
> volts. That is why I know it is not the IGN. switch contact that is
> bad, it is upstream from the ign. switch. As I recall, there are three
> fuses or fusible links that are mounted right on the pos. terminal of
> the battery. Obviously starter power has to be going through one of
> these. Maybe that is where bad connection is?
> Geronimo

From: johngdole on 7 Sep 2007 23:16
If everything else checks out, maybe it's like Honda-man's 99 Camry
starting problem? Hard to start the first time, but when it gets
going, it gets going.

But I wouldn't try to fix a problem by just replacing parts.



On Sep 7, 6:58 pm, geronimo <Jam...(a)grandecom.net> wrote:
> No, it is at full batt voltage until I go from ON to START.... then
> because there is resistance going back to the battery, it drops to 10
> volts. That is why I know it is not the IGN. switch contact that is
> bad, it is upstream from the ign. switch. As I recall, there are three
> fuses or fusible links that are mounted right on the pos. terminal of
> the battery. Obviously starter power has to be going through one of
> these. Maybe that is where bad connection is?
> Geronimo
>

From: geronimo on 8 Sep 2007 07:15
Again, I have already eliminated the ign switch as the culprit, there
is NO appreciable voltage being dropped across the ign switch. The
drop is occuring somewhere downstream from battery and upstream from
the ign switch. It is BRN B-wire on input, and Black/white going out
to safety switch as you said....from there to control wire. During
cranking there is 0 volts across the ign contacts. The voltage is
being pulled down by resistance ahead of the ign switch towards the
battery. I have already jumpered around the safety switch, still had
same problem. I initially thought that might be where the voltage drop
was.
I am thinking that there must be an internal relay in this
starter, as the wire going to control relay is only abt 20 gauge.
It would never handle 200-400 amps! This is is a new starter from
Autozone.....a new starter wasn't the fix either!
There are three fuses mounted right on the pos terminal of
batttery, but none of the four wires are solid BRN. There is
something wrong with the middle 60 amp fuse, as it will not pull out,
so I am going to investigate this today. But since the starter
control wire pwr. doesn't go to the battery directly, problem is not
at those fuses.

Geronimo

On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 20:00:24 -0700, johngdole(a)hotmail.com wrote:

>Well, the only schematics I could find are the ones on AutoZone for
>the 1988 Camry. And that one doesn't show there is a Starter Relay!! I
>am surprised because of the amount of current going to the starter
>(250-400 amps for 97+ models).
>
>So if you have full battery voltage at the IGN SWITCH until you turn
>it to START, then it's probably the voltage drop by the starter.
>
>You can do a test by jumpering not from the battery but from the INPUT
>of the IGN SWITCH to the starter, PROVIDED THAT your car connects
>directly from the IGN SWITCH to the starter without going through a
>relay (otherwise it's a over-current for the wires).
>
>If the test succeeded in starting, then you know the current drop
>across the IGN SWITCH is too much. But I have to be absolutely certain
>that the model year doesn't use a relay before putting all that
>current through the brown wire you mentioned.
>
>Can you verify the existence of a starter relay?
>
>
>
>
>
>On Sep 7, 6:58 pm, geronimo <Jam...(a)grandecom.net> wrote:
>> No, it is at full batt voltage until I go from ON to START.... then
>> because there is resistance going back to the battery, it drops to 10
>> volts. That is why I know it is not the IGN. switch contact that is
>> bad, it is upstream from the ign. switch. As I recall, there are three
>> fuses or fusible links that are mounted right on the pos. terminal of
>> the battery. Obviously starter power has to be going through one of
>> these. Maybe that is where bad connection is?
>> Geronimo

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