valve cover gasket issue
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From: larry moe 'n curly on 6 Mar 2010 14:55 Ray O wrote: > > By the way, if the valve cover uses formed-in-place gasket (FIPG), do not > use silicone on the valve cover! Use only FIPG products that are listed as > safe for O-2 sensors. If the valve cover uses a regular gasket, do not try > to make one out of FIPG as it will almost always leak. Is FIPG that O2-sensor-safe silicone sealer, or is it an entirely different type of material? I've heard of a FIPG material that changes from solid to liquid when the gasket is tightened (and I do mean solid to liquid, not the other way around) but back to solid when the pieces are disassembled, and supposedly it can be reused 8-10 times. I wish I could find some, just to see what it's like. Have you ever heard of such an animal? The Ford dealer replaced my leaky rubber oil pan gasket with RTV silicone sealer during the first year or two, and right away the oil turned opaque green. They said it was normal and wouldn't hurt the O2 sensor.
From: Ray O on 7 Mar 2010 01:51 "Michael" <mrdarrett(a)gmail.com> wrote in message news:a889c61c-ea2b-44e8-b315-8a4142cfb564(a)c34g2000pri.googlegroups.com... On Mar 5, 10:48 pm, "Ray O" <rokig...(a)NOSPAMtristarassociates.com> wrote: > "Michael" <mrdarr...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message > > news:9d17541e-4c18-422f-a760-cc7987d64686(a)b7g2000pro.googlegroups.com... > > >I was changing the valve cover gasket on my wife's '99 Camry. > > > I was scraping off the old silicone that was there, when a piece about > > 1/2 inch long by, oh, say 1/8 to 1/4 inch wide fell in under a > > camshaft. > > > I tried to fish it out, but then it went in under the camshaft > > supports. > > > How bad is this? > > If the piece blocks one of the oil drains, you have a problem. If it > somehow makes it all way down to the pan, then no problem. Did you try a > piece of pipe cleaner or an un-zipped zip tie to fish it out? How about > some clean oil to flush it out? > > By the way, if the valve cover uses formed-in-place gasket (FIPG), do not > use silicone on the valve cover! Use only FIPG products that are listed as > safe for O-2 sensors. If the valve cover uses a regular gasket, do not try > to make one out of FIPG as it will almost always leak. > -- > > Ray O > (correct punctuation to reply) Thanks Ray. Didn't have any pipe cleaners... just used a bent paper clip. Tried long-nosed pliers but wouldn't fit. Then it went under the camshaft supports... aargh! This is perhaps the farthest I've delved in trying to maintain the cars. First time removing the valve cover. I drove the car around the neighborhood already, partly to make sure no more oil would seep out of the valve cover gasket. So far so good. Where are the oil drains exactly? How many of them are there? How large are they? 1/4-inch diameter? 1/8-inch? 1/2 inch? I don't suppose silicone will dissolve in a pool of hot oil...? Not sure what exactly it was prior. Is the OEM stuff rubber, or silicone? I took the car to Pep Boys for valve cover gasket change ~3 years ago, and they left some gray stuff there which is what came out while I was cleaning the cylinder head. The rubber stuff in the cover came out pretty easily. I'm guessing that's what Pep Boys put in. Was thinking about removing the camshafts but decided against it - afraid if I mess up the alignment. Thanks! Michael ******************* The location and size, and number of oil drains varies, but they will be at the lowest parts of the head so the oil drains. The drain hole diameter is probably somewhere between 1/8 and 1/4 inch. The sealer will not dissolve in oil; it would not be an effective sealer if oil dissolved it. If the valve cover had a rubber (actually something closer to neoprene) gasket, then there should not have been any additional sealer or caulking. Perhaps the replacement gasket that Pep Boys used was the incorrect size or shape and they used the caulk/sealer to try to fix leaks. The problem with using a caulk of sealer in addition to a rubber gasket is that it is difficult to get a good seal so they almost always leak. Removing the camshafts is a much more involved job than removing the valve cover, and you would need replacement camshaft seals. To remove the camshafts, you have to remove the timing belt/chain and get the camshaft timing perfect when putting everything back together. Watch for clouds of smoke when you start the car after it has been sitting for a while, and check your oil level every few days for a week or two. The sudden appearance of clouds of smoke or more rapid oil consumption without any external leaks could be a sign of a blocked drain. I doubt if the drains are blocked, but it wouldn't hurt to check. -- Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
From: Ray O on 7 Mar 2010 02:16 "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly(a)my-deja.com> wrote in message news:7c18bf09-3486-4232-8db9-efb1dc5b0799(a)k6g2000prg.googlegroups.com... > > > Ray O wrote: >> >> By the way, if the valve cover uses formed-in-place gasket (FIPG), do not >> use silicone on the valve cover! Use only FIPG products that are listed >> as >> safe for O-2 sensors. If the valve cover uses a regular gasket, do not >> try >> to make one out of FIPG as it will almost always leak. > > Is FIPG that O2-sensor-safe silicone sealer, or is it an entirely > different type of material? I've heard of a FIPG material that > changes from solid to liquid when the gasket is tightened (and I do > mean solid to liquid, not the other way around) but back to solid when > the pieces are disassembled, and supposedly it can be reused 8-10 > times. I wish I could find some, just to see what it's like. Have you > ever heard of such an animal? > > The Ford dealer replaced my leaky rubber oil pan gasket with RTV > silicone sealer during the first year or two, and right away the oil > turned opaque green. They said it was normal and wouldn't hurt the O2 > sensor. "FIPG" is an acronym for formed in place gaskets. FIPG is made of different materials, depending on the application. Silicone might be used to seal a plastic case for water resistance, while the stuff used for oil pan gaskets is something else. AFAIK, Toyota valve covers generally have a rubber-neoprene gasket and do not use FIPG for the valve cover. -- Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
From: Michael on 7 Mar 2010 02:25 On Mar 6, 10:51 pm, "Ray O" <rokig...(a)NOSPAMtristarassociates.com> wrote: > "Michael" <mrdarr...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message > > news:a889c61c-ea2b-44e8-b315-8a4142cfb564(a)c34g2000pri.googlegroups.com... > On Mar 5, 10:48 pm, "Ray O" <rokig...(a)NOSPAMtristarassociates.com> > wrote: > > > > > "Michael" <mrdarr...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message > > >news:9d17541e-4c18-422f-a760-cc7987d64686(a)b7g2000pro.googlegroups.com... > > > >I was changing the valve cover gasket on my wife's '99 Camry. > > > > I was scraping off the old silicone that was there, when a piece about > > > 1/2 inch long by, oh, say 1/8 to 1/4 inch wide fell in under a > > > camshaft. > > > > I tried to fish it out, but then it went in under the camshaft > > > supports. > > > > How bad is this? > > > If the piece blocks one of the oil drains, you have a problem. If it > > somehow makes it all way down to the pan, then no problem. Did you try a > > piece of pipe cleaner or an un-zipped zip tie to fish it out? How about > > some clean oil to flush it out? > > > By the way, if the valve cover uses formed-in-place gasket (FIPG), do not > > use silicone on the valve cover! Use only FIPG products that are listed as > > safe for O-2 sensors. If the valve cover uses a regular gasket, do not try > > to make one out of FIPG as it will almost always leak. > > -- > > > Ray O > > (correct punctuation to reply) > > Thanks Ray. > > Didn't have any pipe cleaners... just used a bent paper clip. Tried > long-nosed pliers but wouldn't fit. Then it went under the camshaft > supports... aargh! > > This is perhaps the farthest I've delved in trying to maintain the > cars. First time removing the valve cover. > > I drove the car around the neighborhood already, partly to make sure > no more oil would seep out of the valve cover gasket. So far so good. > > Where are the oil drains exactly? How many of them are there? How > large are they? 1/4-inch diameter? 1/8-inch? 1/2 inch? > > I don't suppose silicone will dissolve in a pool of hot oil...? > > Not sure what exactly it was prior. Is the OEM stuff rubber, or > silicone? I took the car to Pep Boys for valve cover gasket change ~3 > years ago, and they left some gray stuff there which is what came out > while I was cleaning the cylinder head. > > The rubber stuff in the cover came out pretty easily. I'm guessing > that's what Pep Boys put in. > > Was thinking about removing the camshafts but decided against it - > afraid if I mess up the alignment. > > Thanks! > > Michael > > ******************* > The location and size, and number of oil drains varies, but they will be at > the lowest parts of the head so the oil drains. The drain hole diameter is > probably somewhere between 1/8 and 1/4 inch. > > The sealer will not dissolve in oil; it would not be an effective sealer if > oil dissolved it. > > If the valve cover had a rubber (actually something closer to neoprene) > gasket, then there should not have been any additional sealer or caulking.. > Perhaps the replacement gasket that Pep Boys used was the incorrect size or > shape and they used the caulk/sealer to try to fix leaks. The problem with > using a caulk of sealer in addition to a rubber gasket is that it is > difficult to get a good seal so they almost always leak. > > Removing the camshafts is a much more involved job than removing the valve > cover, and you would need replacement camshaft seals. To remove the > camshafts, you have to remove the timing belt/chain and get the camshaft > timing perfect when putting everything back together. > > Watch for clouds of smoke when you start the car after it has been sitting > for a while, and check your oil level every few days for a week or two. The > sudden appearance of clouds of smoke or more rapid oil consumption without > any external leaks could be a sign of a blocked drain. I doubt if the > drains are blocked, but it wouldn't hurt to check. > -- > > Ray O > (correct punctuation to reply) Ok thanks for the advice on checking oil levels! Will do. 1/4 inch... that small in diameter, huh... There's more than one drain, right? Where do they drain to? Do they go down into the piston area, so if one drain is blocked, a piston can overheat? Or do they go straight to the pan? Michael
From: Ray O on 7 Mar 2010 11:15
"Michael" <mrdarrett(a)gmail.com> wrote in message news:cd22ba74-e878-4f55-a1f6-daff2eab22cc(a)x1g2000prb.googlegroups.com... On Mar 6, 10:51 pm, "Ray O" <rokig...(a)NOSPAMtristarassociates.com> wrote: > "Michael" <mrdarr...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message > > news:a889c61c-ea2b-44e8-b315-8a4142cfb564(a)c34g2000pri.googlegroups.com... > On Mar 5, 10:48 pm, "Ray O" <rokig...(a)NOSPAMtristarassociates.com> > wrote: > > > > > "Michael" <mrdarr...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message > > >news:9d17541e-4c18-422f-a760-cc7987d64686(a)b7g2000pro.googlegroups.com... > > > >I was changing the valve cover gasket on my wife's '99 Camry. > > > > I was scraping off the old silicone that was there, when a piece about > > > 1/2 inch long by, oh, say 1/8 to 1/4 inch wide fell in under a > > > camshaft. > > > > I tried to fish it out, but then it went in under the camshaft > > > supports. > > > > How bad is this? > > > If the piece blocks one of the oil drains, you have a problem. If it > > somehow makes it all way down to the pan, then no problem. Did you try a > > piece of pipe cleaner or an un-zipped zip tie to fish it out? How about > > some clean oil to flush it out? > > > By the way, if the valve cover uses formed-in-place gasket (FIPG), do > > not > > use silicone on the valve cover! Use only FIPG products that are listed > > as > > safe for O-2 sensors. If the valve cover uses a regular gasket, do not > > try > > to make one out of FIPG as it will almost always leak. > > -- > > > Ray O > > (correct punctuation to reply) > > Thanks Ray. > > Didn't have any pipe cleaners... just used a bent paper clip. Tried > long-nosed pliers but wouldn't fit. Then it went under the camshaft > supports... aargh! > > This is perhaps the farthest I've delved in trying to maintain the > cars. First time removing the valve cover. > > I drove the car around the neighborhood already, partly to make sure > no more oil would seep out of the valve cover gasket. So far so good. > > Where are the oil drains exactly? How many of them are there? How > large are they? 1/4-inch diameter? 1/8-inch? 1/2 inch? > > I don't suppose silicone will dissolve in a pool of hot oil...? > > Not sure what exactly it was prior. Is the OEM stuff rubber, or > silicone? I took the car to Pep Boys for valve cover gasket change ~3 > years ago, and they left some gray stuff there which is what came out > while I was cleaning the cylinder head. > > The rubber stuff in the cover came out pretty easily. I'm guessing > that's what Pep Boys put in. > > Was thinking about removing the camshafts but decided against it - > afraid if I mess up the alignment. > > Thanks! > > Michael > > ******************* > The location and size, and number of oil drains varies, but they will be > at > the lowest parts of the head so the oil drains. The drain hole diameter is > probably somewhere between 1/8 and 1/4 inch. > > The sealer will not dissolve in oil; it would not be an effective sealer > if > oil dissolved it. > > If the valve cover had a rubber (actually something closer to neoprene) > gasket, then there should not have been any additional sealer or caulking. > Perhaps the replacement gasket that Pep Boys used was the incorrect size > or > shape and they used the caulk/sealer to try to fix leaks. The problem with > using a caulk of sealer in addition to a rubber gasket is that it is > difficult to get a good seal so they almost always leak. > > Removing the camshafts is a much more involved job than removing the valve > cover, and you would need replacement camshaft seals. To remove the > camshafts, you have to remove the timing belt/chain and get the camshaft > timing perfect when putting everything back together. > > Watch for clouds of smoke when you start the car after it has been sitting > for a while, and check your oil level every few days for a week or two. > The > sudden appearance of clouds of smoke or more rapid oil consumption without > any external leaks could be a sign of a blocked drain. I doubt if the > drains are blocked, but it wouldn't hurt to check. > -- > > Ray O > (correct punctuation to reply) Ok thanks for the advice on checking oil levels! Will do. 1/4 inch... that small in diameter, huh... There's more than one drain, right? Where do they drain to? Do they go down into the piston area, so if one drain is blocked, a piston can overheat? Or do they go straight to the pan? Michael ******************* The oil in the area on top of the head drains down to the oil pan. When you add oil to the engine, the opening in the valve cover leads to the top of the head, and from there, it drains through several openings down to the oil pan. -- Ray O (correct punctuation to reply) |