From: EdV on

Here's another one: (suzuki.com)
2007 Suzuki SX4 Base AWD From $14,999*
Ground Clearance 6.9 inches... 07 Camry are only 5.5 RAV4 are 7.5
inches
EPA FUEL ECONOMY ESTIMATES SX4 SX4 SPORT
Manual, city/highway (mpg) 23/28 23/28
Automatic, city/highway (mpg) 24/30 24/30

From: Cathy F. on

"JoeSpareBedroom" <dishborealis(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7yGri.13134$B25.5477(a)news01.roc.ny...
> "Moon Goddess" <MG(a)no-spam.www> wrote in message
> news:idKdnZU6X9T7RDPbnZ2dnUVZ_uvinZ2d(a)forethought.net...
>> "JoeSpareBedroom" <dishborealis(a)yahoo.com> wrote :
>>
>>> "Moon Goddess" <MG(a)no-spam.www> wrote in message
>>> news:z4WdnWYlucRXwDPbnZ2dnUVZ_vjinZ2d(a)forethought.net...
>>>> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop(a)nastydesigns.com> wrote :
>>>>
>>>>> In article <xKmdndRcKdOSxzPbnZ2dnUVZ_uLinZ2d(a)forethought.net>,
>>>>> Moon Goddess <MG(a)no-spam.www> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> > What kind of driving do you expect to do that you need a 4WD?
>>>>>> > snow, mountain climbing, dirt roads, are you going to tow
>>>>>> > anything, do you need a small 4wd or large 4wd.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mostly city snow driving. I need something as fuel efficient as
>>>>>> possible, I do a lot of business driving.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then you do NOT want a vehicle that is able to drive all four
>>>>> wheels.
>>>>> Those mechanisms all weigh something, which costs gas to haul
>>>>> around
>>>>> all the time. It's like having another person in the car at all
>>>>> times. That extra gas costs $$$. It's a MPG penalty.
>>>>>
>>>>> Plus, all those systems require maintenance of their own, above and
>>>>> beyond what their 2wd brothers need. That also costs $$$.
>>>>>
>>>>> City driving? You'll be fine with front wheel drive and good
>>>>> tires. I heavily recommend Nokian WR. Absolute worst case, you buy
>>>>> snow tires with a more aggressive tread as well as a winter rating,
>>>>> and you run those during winter. But city driving? Paved roads
>>>>> that get plowed? You don't need 4wd or awd at all.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Only the main roads get plowed here and much of my work is driving
>>>> into the back neighborhoods, where I had a heck of a time last
>>>> winter with sometimes 6" of snow in the streets.
>>>>
>>>> There's a hill along the street our driveway exits onto and even
>>>> that gets hard to get out of when it snows more than a few inches,
>>>> and the city cares not about it.
>>>>
>>>
>>> My prediction: Within 60 days of the snow starting, you'll drive your
>>> 4WD thing into a ditch and wonder why it didn't work like magic.
>>>
>>> Get a front wheel drive SOMETHING, and some very serious snow tires.
>>> Blizzak is a good example of a tire that would make you happy.
>>> Oh...and learn to drive.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Well humphh. :) I drive very well thank you. You just haven't seen the
>> mess that they leave most residential streets in, in the Denver area
>> after a decent storm.
>
> Since 1982, when I moved to upstate NY, I've driven hundreds times on
> streets with 6" of snow, and handled them just fine, driving a Toyota
> Tercel, a Honda Accord, a Ford Taurus, and my ex's Toyota Corolla wagon. I
> handle it now with a rear wheel drive pickup.

Maybe a pickup has enough weight, but a rear wheel drive car in snow - no
thanks. BTDT many years ago, & it doesn't always go where you steer it, in
snow. No matter how carefully you're driving. Front wheel drive makes a
lot of difference.

Cathy


>
> Put down the cell phone, turn off the radio, and listen to the sound of
> the tires on the snow. Learn to drive.
>


From: JoeSpareBedroom on
"Cathy F." <clfrclfr(a)adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:hIadnQfAKtzM0DLbRVn_vgA(a)giganews.com...
>
> "JoeSpareBedroom" <dishborealis(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:7yGri.13134$B25.5477(a)news01.roc.ny...
>> "Moon Goddess" <MG(a)no-spam.www> wrote in message
>> news:idKdnZU6X9T7RDPbnZ2dnUVZ_uvinZ2d(a)forethought.net...
>>> "JoeSpareBedroom" <dishborealis(a)yahoo.com> wrote :
>>>
>>>> "Moon Goddess" <MG(a)no-spam.www> wrote in message
>>>> news:z4WdnWYlucRXwDPbnZ2dnUVZ_vjinZ2d(a)forethought.net...
>>>>> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop(a)nastydesigns.com> wrote :
>>>>>
>>>>>> In article <xKmdndRcKdOSxzPbnZ2dnUVZ_uLinZ2d(a)forethought.net>,
>>>>>> Moon Goddess <MG(a)no-spam.www> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > What kind of driving do you expect to do that you need a 4WD?
>>>>>>> > snow, mountain climbing, dirt roads, are you going to tow
>>>>>>> > anything, do you need a small 4wd or large 4wd.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mostly city snow driving. I need something as fuel efficient as
>>>>>>> possible, I do a lot of business driving.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then you do NOT want a vehicle that is able to drive all four
>>>>>> wheels.
>>>>>> Those mechanisms all weigh something, which costs gas to haul
>>>>>> around
>>>>>> all the time. It's like having another person in the car at all
>>>>>> times. That extra gas costs $$$. It's a MPG penalty.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Plus, all those systems require maintenance of their own, above and
>>>>>> beyond what their 2wd brothers need. That also costs $$$.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> City driving? You'll be fine with front wheel drive and good
>>>>>> tires. I heavily recommend Nokian WR. Absolute worst case, you buy
>>>>>> snow tires with a more aggressive tread as well as a winter rating,
>>>>>> and you run those during winter. But city driving? Paved roads
>>>>>> that get plowed? You don't need 4wd or awd at all.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Only the main roads get plowed here and much of my work is driving
>>>>> into the back neighborhoods, where I had a heck of a time last
>>>>> winter with sometimes 6" of snow in the streets.
>>>>>
>>>>> There's a hill along the street our driveway exits onto and even
>>>>> that gets hard to get out of when it snows more than a few inches,
>>>>> and the city cares not about it.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My prediction: Within 60 days of the snow starting, you'll drive your
>>>> 4WD thing into a ditch and wonder why it didn't work like magic.
>>>>
>>>> Get a front wheel drive SOMETHING, and some very serious snow tires.
>>>> Blizzak is a good example of a tire that would make you happy.
>>>> Oh...and learn to drive.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Well humphh. :) I drive very well thank you. You just haven't seen the
>>> mess that they leave most residential streets in, in the Denver area
>>> after a decent storm.
>>
>> Since 1982, when I moved to upstate NY, I've driven hundreds times on
>> streets with 6" of snow, and handled them just fine, driving a Toyota
>> Tercel, a Honda Accord, a Ford Taurus, and my ex's Toyota Corolla wagon.
>> I handle it now with a rear wheel drive pickup.
>
> Maybe a pickup has enough weight, but a rear wheel drive car in snow - no
> thanks. BTDT many years ago, & it doesn't always go where you steer it,
> in snow. No matter how carefully you're driving. Front wheel drive makes
> a lot of difference.
>
> Cathy

I know. I'm just saying that 4WD isn't a panacea, and that even RWD is
manageable. Notice what most NY State Troopers are driving, and have no
intention of changing?


From: -hh on
Moon Goddess <M...(a)no-spam.www> wrote:
> "Cathy F." <clfrc...(a)adelphia.net> wrote :
> > "Moon Goddess" <M...(a)no-spam.www> wrote:
> >> EdV <systme...(a)hotmail.com> wrote :
>
> >>> What kind of driving do you expect to do that you need a 4WD? snow,
> >>> mountain climbing, dirt roads, are you going to tow anything, do
> >>> you need a small 4wd or large 4wd.
>
> >> Mostly city snow driving. I need something as fuel efficient as
> >> possible, I do a lot of business driving.
>
> > Then I'd stick with front wheel drive, & give it tires which are
> > rated as very good/excellent in snow.
>
> Sounds wise, thanks Cathy.

It is good advice. Around ten years ago, Car & Driver magazine did a
test where they looked at winter performance, and pitted a 4WD on All-
Season tires against a 2WD using snow tires...IIRC, for 8 of the 10
tests, the 2WD w/snows outperformed the 4WD on All-Seasons.

The C&D article used to be on their website, but it disappeared some
years ago. The below webpage reads like what I recall it having, so
it might be someone's effective mirror of the original:

http://www.baileycar.com/winterdrive_html.html

In a nutshell, the only time that 4WD outperformed 2WD/snows was in
acceleration and the very much related hill-climbing, because for both
of these tests, the benefit was in having 4 "fair grip" wheels pulling
was better than just 2 "good grip" wheels. For the rest of the
tests...and most noteably for *stopping*, having snows trumped having
4WD.

Naturally, having 4WD and Snows is better still, but for the simple
question of the relative ranking of 4WD *versus* Snows, the conclusion
is that Snow tires provide more benefit than AWD.

Insofar as the Prius, I would recommend avoiding it as a potential
"snow car", with or without snow tires. Reason being is that there's
a plastic assembly that covers the engine pan area that is highly
prone to being damaged. A friend has one and he has had to get it
repaired two winters in a row, after it becoming damaged by him
driving through some of those snow chunks that snowplows leave behind.

A couple of suggestion on snow tire selection:

1. If you're going to keep the car for more than 2 or 3 seasons,
buying a cheap set of wheels (eg, steel) will pay for themselves in
around 4-5 mount/dismount cycles because of having to pay to get the
tires balanced each time. This applies regardless of if you're
willing to jack your car up in your diveway and DIY, or pay a garage
to swap out the tires each spring/fall.

2. For generic 'snow on road' sorts of winter driving, a narrower
tire is generally expected to perform better. Supposedly, its because
it will have a greater ground pressure, which will proverbially help
it to dig down through the snow to find pavement, instead of
'floating' over the snow. Without going into a lot of tire stuff (ie,
"a 185/70R15 has the same circumference as a 195/60R16, but the tread
width is 10mm narrower", etc), you typically want to go find the
smallest diameter rim that will fit your car properly and put on the
right tire. Any good tire shop can help you through this process very
painlessly. Just tell them that you want: (1) to go to a more narrow
tread; (2) for the rim to clear your brakes; (3) for your speedometer
and odometer to NOT be out of whack (ie, snow tire have same external
circumference). This is all standard stauff and if they don't know
what to do, they're not a good shop.


-hh

From: JoeSpareBedroom on
"-hh" <recscuba_google(a)huntzinger.com> wrote in message
news:1185911480.299091.271840(a)x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> Moon Goddess <M...(a)no-spam.www> wrote:
>> "Cathy F." <clfrc...(a)adelphia.net> wrote :
>> > "Moon Goddess" <M...(a)no-spam.www> wrote:
>> >> EdV <systme...(a)hotmail.com> wrote :
>>
>> >>> What kind of driving do you expect to do that you need a 4WD? snow,
>> >>> mountain climbing, dirt roads, are you going to tow anything, do
>> >>> you need a small 4wd or large 4wd.
>>
>> >> Mostly city snow driving. I need something as fuel efficient as
>> >> possible, I do a lot of business driving.
>>
>> > Then I'd stick with front wheel drive, & give it tires which are
>> > rated as very good/excellent in snow.
>>
>> Sounds wise, thanks Cathy.
>
> It is good advice. Around ten years ago, Car & Driver magazine did a
> test where they looked at winter performance, and pitted a 4WD on All-
> Season tires against a 2WD using snow tires...IIRC, for 8 of the 10
> tests, the 2WD w/snows outperformed the 4WD on All-Seasons.
>
> The C&D article used to be on their website, but it disappeared some
> years ago. The below webpage reads like what I recall it having, so
> it might be someone's effective mirror of the original:
>
> http://www.baileycar.com/winterdrive_html.html
>
> In a nutshell, the only time that 4WD outperformed 2WD/snows was in
> acceleration and the very much related hill-climbing, because for both
> of these tests, the benefit was in having 4 "fair grip" wheels pulling
> was better than just 2 "good grip" wheels. For the rest of the
> tests...and most noteably for *stopping*, having snows trumped having
> 4WD.
>
> Naturally, having 4WD and Snows is better still, but for the simple
> question of the relative ranking of 4WD *versus* Snows, the conclusion
> is that Snow tires provide more benefit than AWD.
>
> Insofar as the Prius, I would recommend avoiding it as a potential
> "snow car", with or without snow tires. Reason being is that there's
> a plastic assembly that covers the engine pan area that is highly
> prone to being damaged. A friend has one and he has had to get it
> repaired two winters in a row, after it becoming damaged by him
> driving through some of those snow chunks that snowplows leave behind.
>
> A couple of suggestion on snow tire selection:
>
> 1. If you're going to keep the car for more than 2 or 3 seasons,
> buying a cheap set of wheels (eg, steel) will pay for themselves in
> around 4-5 mount/dismount cycles because of having to pay to get the
> tires balanced each time. This applies regardless of if you're
> willing to jack your car up in your diveway and DIY, or pay a garage
> to swap out the tires each spring/fall.
>
> 2. For generic 'snow on road' sorts of winter driving, a narrower
> tire is generally expected to perform better. Supposedly, its because
> it will have a greater ground pressure, which will proverbially help
> it to dig down through the snow to find pavement, instead of
> 'floating' over the snow. Without going into a lot of tire stuff (ie,
> "a 185/70R15 has the same circumference as a 195/60R16, but the tread
> width is 10mm narrower", etc), you typically want to go find the
> smallest diameter rim that will fit your car properly and put on the
> right tire. Any good tire shop can help you through this process very
> painlessly. Just tell them that you want: (1) to go to a more narrow
> tread; (2) for the rim to clear your brakes; (3) for your speedometer
> and odometer to NOT be out of whack (ie, snow tire have same external
> circumference). This is all standard stauff and if they don't know
> what to do, they're not a good shop.
>
>
> -hh
>

Perfect advice. You win 11 beers. :-)