Toyota's massive recall woes halt production, ding top quality rep
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From: Ashton Crusher on 27 Jan 2010 23:22 On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 20:52:39 -0500, clare(a)snyder.on.ca wrote: >On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 12:19:55 -0500, "Mike Hunter" ><Mikehunt2(a)lycos,com> wrote: > >>You mean like cutting off the bottom of the accelerator? > >Temporary attempt to fix an unproven problem - better than doing >nothing, IF it had been the problem. > >To this point in time there is NO PROOF the throttles are sticking. >Much less any idea WHY or WHERE they are sticking. > >Yes, some cars have "run away" and some people have been killed - but >no vehicle has had the throttle stick under controlled conditions or >in the hands of a technician who can then determine what went wrong. > Nonsense. They just aired a story of a guy whose Toyota did the "runaway" thing several times. The last time it did it he called the Toyota dealer and said he was bringing it in and he did (by shifting it in and out of gear as needed) and left it running for the tech to look at. The tech verified that the throttle pedal was not stuck on anything or sticking but the engine was racing and would not stop till they shut the car off. Toyota KNOWS this is a REAL problem, not some confusion on the customers part, or they would not have stopped selling cars. >VERY perplexing for the engineers, for sure. >> >>"hls" <hls(a)nospam.nix> wrote in message >>news:boydnQXttfoAyv3WnZ2dnUVZ_vSdnZ2d(a)giganews.com... >>> >>> "Hachiroku ????" <Trueno(a)e86.GTS> wrote in message >>>> >>>> Instead of 'slowing down' when an error is realized, Toyota stops >>>> production. >>>> >>>> Gm would do well to learn from this. Burning Fieros, CV joints wleded to >>>> make a FWD engine a RWD engine, etc. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> Mercedes did the same thing a few years ago with that ugly A class >>> a few years ago. They stopped sales and stopped all manufacture until >>> they got the engineering problem fixed. A lot better move, imo, than >>> the bandaid approach. >>
From: clare on 27 Jan 2010 23:22 On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 20:52:39 -0500, clare(a)snyder.on.ca wrote: >On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 12:19:55 -0500, "Mike Hunter" ><Mikehunt2(a)lycos,com> wrote: > >>You mean like cutting off the bottom of the accelerator? > >Temporary attempt to fix an unproven problem - better than doing >nothing, IF it had been the problem. > >To this point in time there is NO PROOF the throttles are sticking. >Much less any idea WHY or WHERE they are sticking. OK - More information is out. It APPEARS the problem is with the one part that is common to both the drive-by-wire and linkage vehicles - the design of the actual pedal assembly. Apparently the pedal, under some conditions can bind - but I can't for the life of me figure out how it could bind that you could not pull it back by getting a toe under it. Anyway, the supplier of the pedal is going crazy trying to get a redisigned pedal into production at all of their plants across North America. I don't know if it is a materials problem, or what, but if the bushing (or the entire pedal) is made from, say, nylon, and the clearances are small enough, absorbing moisture (which nylon is real good at,) could cause the bushing to swell and bind on the pin. The design of a floor mat could contribute to this if it holds moisture in close proximity to the pedal pivot. At any rate, millions more floormats have just been added to the recall. Hopefully within a few days more information will be released, and the problem will be 100% solved. > >Yes, some cars have "run away" and some people have been killed - but >no vehicle has had the throttle stick under controlled conditions or >in the hands of a technician who can then determine what went wrong. > >VERY perplexing for the engineers, for sure. >> Whether they have actually gotten pedals to stick "on command" or whether the experience in europe has pointed them to the pedal design, I have not heard. They must have thought the design was different enough that the european experience did not apply directly to the American vehicles or they would have addressed it much sooner. >>"hls" <hls(a)nospam.nix> wrote in message >>news:boydnQXttfoAyv3WnZ2dnUVZ_vSdnZ2d(a)giganews.com... >>> >>> "Hachiroku ????" <Trueno(a)e86.GTS> wrote in message >>>> >>>> Instead of 'slowing down' when an error is realized, Toyota stops >>>> production. >>>> >>>> Gm would do well to learn from this. Burning Fieros, CV joints wleded to >>>> make a FWD engine a RWD engine, etc. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> Mercedes did the same thing a few years ago with that ugly A class >>> a few years ago. They stopped sales and stopped all manufacture until >>> they got the engineering problem fixed. A lot better move, imo, than >>> the bandaid approach. >>
From: clare on 28 Jan 2010 00:49 On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 21:22:22 -0700, Ashton Crusher <demi(a)moore.net> wrote: >On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 20:52:39 -0500, clare(a)snyder.on.ca wrote: > >>On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 12:19:55 -0500, "Mike Hunter" >><Mikehunt2(a)lycos,com> wrote: >> >>>You mean like cutting off the bottom of the accelerator? >> >>Temporary attempt to fix an unproven problem - better than doing >>nothing, IF it had been the problem. >> >>To this point in time there is NO PROOF the throttles are sticking. >>Much less any idea WHY or WHERE they are sticking. >> >>Yes, some cars have "run away" and some people have been killed - but >>no vehicle has had the throttle stick under controlled conditions or >>in the hands of a technician who can then determine what went wrong. >> > >Nonsense. They just aired a story of a guy whose Toyota did the >"runaway" thing several times. The last time it did it he called the >Toyota dealer and said he was bringing it in and he did (by shifting >it in and out of gear as needed) and left it running for the tech to >look at. The tech verified that the throttle pedal was not stuck on >anything or sticking but the engine was racing and would not stop till >they shut the car off. Toyota KNOWS this is a REAL problem, not some >confusion on the customers part, or they would not have stopped >selling cars. Well as a mechanic I find that extremely unlikely - if the PEDAL is not stuck, and the LINKAGE is not stuck, there is NOTHING that can cause the throttle to stick that would not be possible to remedy, or at least determine, without shutting the car off. The IAC does not have enough authority to cause a run-away - it can only cause a fast idle. Anything (except on drive-by-wire) that would cause runaway would still be there when the engine is restarted. If it was a diesel it would be a different story because a diesel is not throttled and something as simple as a leaking transmission modulator can cause the engine to run fast, and a punctured piston can cause an engine to over-rev to the point it blows itself up.(and cannot be shut down by any conventional methods) Step one - is the throttle against the stop? If not, is the cable/linkage in tension? If it is, problem at the pedal. If it isn't, problem is at the throttle body end. Disconnect the cable. Does the throttle return to the stop? If yes, cable. If no, throttle body or associated parts. If the throttle is against the stop, something REAL strange is going on. Besides - on this evening's news it was reported that the pedal supplier is in a tizzy trying to get new pedals into Toyota's hands and has all their plants working at it.. Wouldn't be doing that if it wasn't a pedal sticking problem - and the pedal design is apparently the only thing in common between the drive-by wire and mechanical throttle vehicles affected. On one it operates a therottle pot - on the other the throttle body by cable linkage. Being it is affecting (apparently) both technologies, on several different engines, there has to be a common element. The pedal would APPEAR to be that common element at this point. Big news around here with the corolla plant at Cambridge (virtually next door) and the RAV4 plant at Woodstock - just down the highway a short distance. Lots of neighbours employed at both plants. > >>VERY perplexing for the engineers, for sure. >>> >>>"hls" <hls(a)nospam.nix> wrote in message >>>news:boydnQXttfoAyv3WnZ2dnUVZ_vSdnZ2d(a)giganews.com... >>>> >>>> "Hachiroku ????" <Trueno(a)e86.GTS> wrote in message >>>>> >>>>> Instead of 'slowing down' when an error is realized, Toyota stops >>>>> production. >>>>> >>>>> Gm would do well to learn from this. Burning Fieros, CV joints wleded to >>>>> make a FWD engine a RWD engine, etc. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> Mercedes did the same thing a few years ago with that ugly A class >>>> a few years ago. They stopped sales and stopped all manufacture until >>>> they got the engineering problem fixed. A lot better move, imo, than >>>> the bandaid approach. >>>
From: ben91932 on 28 Jan 2010 11:34 > > In cases of runaway acceleration, I tend to believe it's driver's error. > This however, appears to be something different. > I agree. In the case of the Audi 5000, the pedals were built close enough to allow 'heel-toe' driving. Once Audi moved the pedals farther apart and renamed the car.. no more problem. This is different. They had a sample of the pedal assembly on the news last night and showed the sticking. It's very real. IMHO, Toyota will come through this with flying colors. Ben
From: ben91932 on 28 Jan 2010 11:41
On Jan 27, 7:21 pm, "GIga" <a...(a)b.com> wrote: > Just curious - what the hell does this have to do with Lexus? My brothers > have the same parents that I do, but I don't think their problems reflect on > me... Toyota makes Lexus. Many Lexi are gussied up Toyota's. HTH, Ben |