From: Sean Elkins on
In article <1183512858.601125.191380(a)w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
"mrv(a)kluge.net" <mrv(a)kluge.net> wrote:

> On Jul 3, 8:48 am, Sean Elkins <sean_elk...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> > I just bought a new Corolla (5-speed) that gets 32-41 mpg and I paid
> > $14,400 on the road for it. I couldn't have gotten nearly the same
> > discount on a Prius (msrp $22,175)) and at current gas prices the Prius
> > wouldn't save the equivalent cost in gas to make up the difference in
> > price over their useful lives.
>
> Based on an older post:
> http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/2007_Prius/message/8468
> and using US figures
>
> 2007 Prius: http://www.toyota.com/prius/specs.html
> 2007 Camry and Camry Hybrid: http://www.toyota.com/camry/specs.html
> 2007 Corolla: http://www.toyota.com/corolla/specs.html
>
> I'm not quite sure why you are comparing the Prius with the
> Corolla...
> The Prius is a mid-size, and the Corolla is a compact. A better
> comparison is to the mid-size Camry. And the EPA tests are
> standardized, so you should use the same tests for comparason (city to
> city or highway to highway or combined to combined).
>
> Car Sum (interior+cargo volume) Diff to Prius
> ---------------------------------------------
> Prius 110.6 (96.2+14.4) +0.0
> Camry 116.4 (101.4+15.0) +5.8
> CamryH 112.0 (101.4+10.6) +1.4
> Corolla 103.9 (90.3+13.6) -6.7
> all listings in cu. ft.
>
> EPA MPG
> Car City Highway
> -----------------------
> Prius 60 51
> Camry 24 33
> CamryH 40 38

Oh, another thing---my Corolla is a 5 speed, so the mileage figures
should be 32-41, making the mileages you calculated a tad too low for my
actual vehicle.


I will confess to being surprised by the interior volume figures you
posted. I would never have dreamed the Prius has more interior room than
a Corolla. It certainly doesn't look that way on the outside.

I'm not sure my earlier response articulated my overall point well
enough, so I'll try again. To me, comparing the Prius and the Corolla is
valid because the Corolla is the Toyota product I would buy by default.
To me as a consumer, it's the Corolla that the Prius would be competing
against.

Unlike the average consumer, I actually prefer to buy the stripped down
models with manual transmissions, crank windows and manual locks. My new
Corolla is a bit of a departure in that it has power windows and
locks--I got them essentially thrown into the deal since this particular
car was on the lot and they would rather have absorbed the difference
than gone to retrieve the dealer trade I was actually negotiating for.
My point in sharing this background information is that there doesn't
seem to be such a creature as a stripped down Prius to satisfy my
particular purchasing preferences.

So to me as a consumer, Toyota is stacking the deck against the Prius by
not knocking a few thousand off the sticker by selling a base model
without the myriad options. I realize that the loaded models are what
most consumers want, but my interest in cars is getting reliable
transportation as inexpensively as possible.

Here's how I calculate the difference in mileage over 150K miles at
$3/gallon.

Prius: 150000/55 X 3= $8181

Corolla 150000/37 X 3= 12162

That's a difference in fuel cost of $3981. I paid $14,400 on the road
for my Corolla. To save money over 150K miles, I would have to be able
to buy a Prius for $18,291 on the road. Know anybody selling them that
cheap?
From: Cathy F. on

"Sean Elkins" <sean_elkins(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:sean_elkins-49826F.01091404072007(a)iglou.read.readnews.com...
> In article <1183512858.601125.191380(a)w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> "mrv(a)kluge.net" <mrv(a)kluge.net> wrote:
>
>> On Jul 3, 8:48 am, Sean Elkins <sean_elk...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > I just bought a new Corolla (5-speed) that gets 32-41 mpg and I paid
>> > $14,400 on the road for it. I couldn't have gotten nearly the same
>> > discount on a Prius (msrp $22,175)) and at current gas prices the Prius
>> > wouldn't save the equivalent cost in gas to make up the difference in
>> > price over their useful lives.
>>
>> Based on an older post:
>> http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/2007_Prius/message/8468
>> and using US figures
>>
>> 2007 Prius: http://www.toyota.com/prius/specs.html
>> 2007 Camry and Camry Hybrid: http://www.toyota.com/camry/specs.html
>> 2007 Corolla: http://www.toyota.com/corolla/specs.html
>>
>> I'm not quite sure why you are comparing the Prius with the
>> Corolla...
>> The Prius is a mid-size, and the Corolla is a compact. A better
>> comparison is to the mid-size Camry. And the EPA tests are
>> standardized, so you should use the same tests for comparason (city to
>> city or highway to highway or combined to combined).
>>
>> Car Sum (interior+cargo volume) Diff to Prius
>> ---------------------------------------------
>> Prius 110.6 (96.2+14.4) +0.0
>> Camry 116.4 (101.4+15.0) +5.8
>> CamryH 112.0 (101.4+10.6) +1.4
>> Corolla 103.9 (90.3+13.6) -6.7
>> all listings in cu. ft.
>>
>> EPA MPG
>> Car City Highway
>> -----------------------
>> Prius 60 51
>> Camry 24 33
>> CamryH 40 38
>
> Oh, another thing---my Corolla is a 5 speed, so the mileage figures
> should be 32-41, making the mileages you calculated a tad too low for my
> actual vehicle.
>
>
> I will confess to being surprised by the interior volume figures you
> posted. I would never have dreamed the Prius has more interior room than
> a Corolla. It certainly doesn't look that way on the outside.

I already basically said this in another post: it looks small on the
outside, but is designed in a way which renders it definitely roomy on the
inside. I drive a Corolla & the interior of the Prius is larger than that
of the Corolla.

Cathy



From: Bill Putney on
Mike Hunter wrote:

> The very same smart Americans that trade their new car on another new car in
> three to four years, with 30K to 45K on the clock, yet pay a premium price
> that will buy ALL of the fuel for a Corolla for three or four years LOL
>
> mike

I tend to buy used cars and keep them until they are pretty much worn
out, so I don't do either of those things. But in your two scenarios,
look what you have at the end of the 3 or 4 years: In one, a brand new
car, in the other a 3 or 4 year old minimum capability car with new
batteries.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')
From: Bill Putney on
Cathy F. wrote:

> "Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2(a)mailcity.com> wrote in message
> news:hZ6dnUq2Y7nyOxfbnZ2dnUVZ_t6qnZ2d(a)ptd.net...
>
>>Or the morons that pay $6,000 more, for a similar size car like a Corolla,
>>to save a relative few hundred dollars a year on fuel, then need to spend
>>a small fortune at some point to replace the battery pack so they can sell
>>or trade the Pruis. ;)
>
>
> I just checked the Toyota's site: the hybrid battery's warranty is for 8
> years/100K miles. I tend to keep my cars a while, & the longest I've ever
> kept one has been 8 years, the shortest was 4, and usually it's 6 years. I
> personally wouldn't even begin to factor in the possible eventual cost of a
> new battery when deciding on purchasing a hybrid.
>
> Cathy

And your hit on resale will be very big because potential buyers (the
conscious ones anyway) will factor in the essential certainty that they
will need to replace the batteries shortly down the road.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')
From: Bill Putney on
mrv(a)kluge.net wrote:

> On Jul 3, 8:48 am, Sean Elkins <sean_elk...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>I just bought a new Corolla (5-speed) that gets 32-41 mpg and I paid
>>$14,400 on the road for it. I couldn't have gotten nearly the same
>>discount on a Prius (msrp $22,175)) and at current gas prices the Prius
>>wouldn't save the equivalent cost in gas to make up the difference in
>>price over their useful lives.
>
>
> Based on an older post:
> http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/2007_Prius/message/8468
> and using US figures
>
> 2007 Prius: http://www.toyota.com/prius/specs.html
> 2007 Camry and Camry Hybrid: http://www.toyota.com/camry/specs.html
> 2007 Corolla: http://www.toyota.com/corolla/specs.html
>
> I'm not quite sure why you are comparing the Prius with the
> Corolla...
> The Prius is a mid-size, and the Corolla is a compact. A better
> comparison is to the mid-size Camry. And the EPA tests are
> standardized, so you should use the same tests for comparason (city to
> city or highway to highway or combined to combined).
>
> Car Sum (interior+cargo volume) Diff to Prius
> ---------------------------------------------
> Prius 110.6 (96.2+14.4) +0.0
> Camry 116.4 (101.4+15.0) +5.8
> CamryH 112.0 (101.4+10.6) +1.4
> Corolla 103.9 (90.3+13.6) -6.7
> all listings in cu. ft.
>
> EPA MPG
> Car City Highway
> -----------------------
> Prius 60 51
> Camry 24 33
> CamryH 40 38
> Corolla 30 38
>
> 150,000 EPA miles, @ $3/gallon:
> Prius @ 60MPG (city): 2500 gallons, $7500
> Camry @ 24MPG (city): 6250 gallons, $18750, diff +$11250 to Prius
> CamryH @ 40MPG (city): 3750 gallons, $11250, diff +$3750 to Prius
> Corolla @ 30MPG (city): 5000 gallons, $15000, diff +$7500 to Prius
> Prius @ 51MPG (highway): 2941 gallons, $8824
> Camry @ 33MPG (highway): 4545 gallons, $13625, $4811 diff to Prius
> CamryH @ 38MPG (highway): 3947 gallons, $11842, $3018 diff to Prius
> Corolla @ 38MPG (highway): 3947 gallons, $11842, $3018 diff to Prius
>
> But since you are comparing to a Corolla, we should use an accurate
> comparison of the Prius and the Corolla, which means comparible
> options. Since the Prius is an automatic (eCVT) v4 engine (MSRP
> $22795 including the $620 Delivery, Processing, and Handling fee),
> I'll use automatic Corolla LE (v4 engine) (MSRP $17035 with same $620
> DPH fee).
>
> Then start adding in options. It looks like a number are standard
> between the Corolla LE and the Prius: Power Windows, Power Door Locks,
> Engine Immobilizer, Power Side Mirrors (Prius' is heated too), AC,
> Remote Keyless Entry, 6 Speaker AM/FM/CD, Tilt Steering Wheel, and
> Dual front airbags.
>
> The Prius also includes ABS with tire pressure monitors, Traction
> Control, Cruise Control, side and curtain air bags, a Rear Spoiler
> (it's small, but it's there,) and Alloy wheels, which the Corolla LE
> doesn't have standard, but available as options. ABS/tire pressure
> monitor/traction control is package AB (MSRP $390), Cruise contol is
> only available in the audio value package VV (MSRP $200) (this will
> replace the Corolla's AM/FM/CD with a AM/FM/6 disc CD (same speakers)
> so we add $589 for a 6-disc CD changer accessory to the Prius (which
> then has a 7- disc CD capacity fyi)). Rear Spoiler accessory RF for
> the Corolla is $425, and Alloy Wheels are package AW (accessory price
> $499, package MSRP $390). The side airbags is package BE (MSRP
> $655). To summarize, 390+200+425+390+655 = $2060 to add to the
> Corolla to make it comparable to the Prius, while adding $589 to make
> it comparable to the Corolla.
>
> So that's 17035+2060 = $19095 for the Corolla LE w/ the appropriate
> options and accessories. The Prius with the 6-disc changer is
> 22795+589 = $23384. The difference in MSRP is $4289 more for the
> Prius than the Corolla.
>
> Now, there's also tax incentives for the Prius. The US Federal
> Income
> tax Hybrid Credit comes into effect, which for the 2007 Prius
> purchased now through September 31, 2007 is $787.50.
> http://www.toyota.com/prius/tax.html
> http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=157557,00.html
>
> There's also state incentives, depending on where you live (CO gives
> a
> $3,013 credit for a 2007 Prius (see http://www.revenue.state.co.us/fyi/html/income09.html
> ), for instance), but I'll ignore those state incentives for now
> since
> it's location dependent.
>
> So with the current $787.50 Fed income tax credit as stated above,
> the
> price difference drops from $4289 to $3501.50.
>
> So, if you always drove your car according to the EPA highway test
> cycle, and gasoline was a stagnant $3/gallon over the time it takes
> you to drive 150,000 miles, and you purchased a vehicle today, and
> ignoring sales or excise taxes (based on the vehicle price): To
> purchase the Prius you'd spend $3601.50 more than on the comparable
> Corolla LE, but after 150,000 highway miles you'd spend $3018 more on
> the Corolla LE than on the Prius.
>
> So, just comparing similar vehicles MSRP with their expected fuel
> use,
> you'd pay $483.50 more for the comparable 2007 Corolla LE than for the
> 2007 Prius.
>
> YMMV with state incentives of course. Also, for really calculating
> ROI on a vehicle (not just purchase price and gasoline cost), you'd
> need to calculate the different cost for maintenance, insurance, and
> the big one: depreciation, which definitely makes the Prius even more
> attractive.
>
>
> See also:
> http://www.intellichoice.com/press/Hybrid-Survey-2006
> http://www.intellichoice.com/carBuying101/HypeOverHybrids
> http://www.kbb.com/kbb/Advice/GenericContent.aspx?ContentUniqueName=KbbWebContent%3a912&linkId=hp_resale_text

You can subtract the $787.50 from the savings because *somenone* (the
taxapyer) pays for that. Only if yuou ar a liberal do you ignore such
costs.

Also I question your depreciatrion point, especially if the battery pak
has not been replaced before you put it on the used market. The used car
market will be sure to (and should) factor that in.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')