The Drive-a-Toyota Act
in [Toyota]
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From: Cathy F. on 3 Jul 2007 21:23 "C. E. White" <cewhite(a)mindspring.com> wrote in message news:phBii.3261$rR.2231(a)newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net... <hugely snipped> > I think the Prius is a very interesting car. But economically it is an > irrational purchase. But so are lots of other car purchases. It is even > more irrational to pay a lot for a used Prius. Sooner or later the battery > pack will need to be replaced. Do you want to be holding the bag when this > happens? As pointed out to Mike Hunter - more than once - & not just by moi, the battery has a 8 year/100K mile warranty. I have kept only one car for as long as 8 years (& that was back in '76 - '84) - I usually keep my cars for 6 years, & have never hit 100K miles. If I eventually get a Prius, having to fork out $ to replace the battery won't be worrying to me, at all. Simply because the chances of it happening will be next to nil. > If your goal is minmal operating cost, Yeah, it was in '04, hence the purchase of my 4th-in-a-row Corolla. But I seriously looked into the Prius - test drove one (had to go 100 miles one way, just to find one on a dealer's lot back then!) and did all of the math - & really wanted one. But it would've cost - factoring in everything - about $5K over the loaded Corolla, so I reluctantly dropped the idea. Plus there was a minimum wait time of 5 months at that point, & I had promised the buyer of my old Corolla that I'd sell it by "x" date - in 2 months, not 5 or more. So... may splurge a bit & treat myself to one next time around! Cathy then a 2 year old Focus is a > much better idea than a used Prius. Since you truct CR, they give the > Focus exactly the same level of recommendation as the Prius, and a used > Focus can be picked up for a fraction of the cost of a used Prius. > > Ed > >
From: mrv on 3 Jul 2007 21:34 On Jul 3, 8:48 am, Sean Elkins <sean_elk...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > I just bought a new Corolla (5-speed) that gets 32-41 mpg and I paid > $14,400 on the road for it. I couldn't have gotten nearly the same > discount on a Prius (msrp $22,175)) and at current gas prices the Prius > wouldn't save the equivalent cost in gas to make up the difference in > price over their useful lives. Based on an older post: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/2007_Prius/message/8468 and using US figures 2007 Prius: http://www.toyota.com/prius/specs.html 2007 Camry and Camry Hybrid: http://www.toyota.com/camry/specs.html 2007 Corolla: http://www.toyota.com/corolla/specs.html I'm not quite sure why you are comparing the Prius with the Corolla... The Prius is a mid-size, and the Corolla is a compact. A better comparison is to the mid-size Camry. And the EPA tests are standardized, so you should use the same tests for comparason (city to city or highway to highway or combined to combined). Car Sum (interior+cargo volume) Diff to Prius --------------------------------------------- Prius 110.6 (96.2+14.4) +0.0 Camry 116.4 (101.4+15.0) +5.8 CamryH 112.0 (101.4+10.6) +1.4 Corolla 103.9 (90.3+13.6) -6.7 all listings in cu. ft. EPA MPG Car City Highway ----------------------- Prius 60 51 Camry 24 33 CamryH 40 38 Corolla 30 38 150,000 EPA miles, @ $3/gallon: Prius @ 60MPG (city): 2500 gallons, $7500 Camry @ 24MPG (city): 6250 gallons, $18750, diff +$11250 to Prius CamryH @ 40MPG (city): 3750 gallons, $11250, diff +$3750 to Prius Corolla @ 30MPG (city): 5000 gallons, $15000, diff +$7500 to Prius Prius @ 51MPG (highway): 2941 gallons, $8824 Camry @ 33MPG (highway): 4545 gallons, $13625, $4811 diff to Prius CamryH @ 38MPG (highway): 3947 gallons, $11842, $3018 diff to Prius Corolla @ 38MPG (highway): 3947 gallons, $11842, $3018 diff to Prius But since you are comparing to a Corolla, we should use an accurate comparison of the Prius and the Corolla, which means comparible options. Since the Prius is an automatic (eCVT) v4 engine (MSRP $22795 including the $620 Delivery, Processing, and Handling fee), I'll use automatic Corolla LE (v4 engine) (MSRP $17035 with same $620 DPH fee). Then start adding in options. It looks like a number are standard between the Corolla LE and the Prius: Power Windows, Power Door Locks, Engine Immobilizer, Power Side Mirrors (Prius' is heated too), AC, Remote Keyless Entry, 6 Speaker AM/FM/CD, Tilt Steering Wheel, and Dual front airbags. The Prius also includes ABS with tire pressure monitors, Traction Control, Cruise Control, side and curtain air bags, a Rear Spoiler (it's small, but it's there,) and Alloy wheels, which the Corolla LE doesn't have standard, but available as options. ABS/tire pressure monitor/traction control is package AB (MSRP $390), Cruise contol is only available in the audio value package VV (MSRP $200) (this will replace the Corolla's AM/FM/CD with a AM/FM/6 disc CD (same speakers) so we add $589 for a 6-disc CD changer accessory to the Prius (which then has a 7- disc CD capacity fyi)). Rear Spoiler accessory RF for the Corolla is $425, and Alloy Wheels are package AW (accessory price $499, package MSRP $390). The side airbags is package BE (MSRP $655). To summarize, 390+200+425+390+655 = $2060 to add to the Corolla to make it comparable to the Prius, while adding $589 to make it comparable to the Corolla. So that's 17035+2060 = $19095 for the Corolla LE w/ the appropriate options and accessories. The Prius with the 6-disc changer is 22795+589 = $23384. The difference in MSRP is $4289 more for the Prius than the Corolla. Now, there's also tax incentives for the Prius. The US Federal Income tax Hybrid Credit comes into effect, which for the 2007 Prius purchased now through September 31, 2007 is $787.50. http://www.toyota.com/prius/tax.html http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=157557,00.html There's also state incentives, depending on where you live (CO gives a $3,013 credit for a 2007 Prius (see http://www.revenue.state.co.us/fyi/html/income09.html ), for instance), but I'll ignore those state incentives for now since it's location dependent. So with the current $787.50 Fed income tax credit as stated above, the price difference drops from $4289 to $3501.50. So, if you always drove your car according to the EPA highway test cycle, and gasoline was a stagnant $3/gallon over the time it takes you to drive 150,000 miles, and you purchased a vehicle today, and ignoring sales or excise taxes (based on the vehicle price): To purchase the Prius you'd spend $3601.50 more than on the comparable Corolla LE, but after 150,000 highway miles you'd spend $3018 more on the Corolla LE than on the Prius. So, just comparing similar vehicles MSRP with their expected fuel use, you'd pay $483.50 more for the comparable 2007 Corolla LE than for the 2007 Prius. YMMV with state incentives of course. Also, for really calculating ROI on a vehicle (not just purchase price and gasoline cost), you'd need to calculate the different cost for maintenance, insurance, and the big one: depreciation, which definitely makes the Prius even more attractive. See also: http://www.intellichoice.com/press/Hybrid-Survey-2006 http://www.intellichoice.com/carBuying101/HypeOverHybrids http://www.kbb.com/kbb/Advice/GenericContent.aspx?ContentUniqueName=KbbWebContent%3a912&linkId=hp_resale_text
From: mrv on 3 Jul 2007 21:44 On Jul 3, 7:50 pm, "C. E. White" <cewh...(a)mindspring.com> wrote: > Good. But how about cradle to grave affect on the enviroment? Don't you > wonder about the enviromental costs of the batteries? Here's the 2004 Toyota Prius Green Report (life cycle assessment): http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/k_forum/tenji/pdf/pgr_e.pdf (you'll need to download the Japanese fonts for your PDF reader in order to read it, but the entire document is written in English.) Over the lifespan of the Prius, when compared to a comparable mid- sized gasoline vehicle, the Prius comes out ahead in the life cycle assessment (LCA) for airborne emissions for CO2, NOx, SOx, HC, but actually does worse for PM (thanks to the material and vehicle production stages). Lifespan is given as 10 years use/100,000km. The CO2 break-even point for the 2004 Prius compared to this unnamed gasoline vehicle is given at 20,000km. (more CO2 is emitted during Prius production, but the Prius makes up for it over it's driven lifetime.) The batteries are easily recycled, so not an environmental issue. (or do you really believe the FUD about the Sudbury facility?) Sorry, I don't have data on the Ford Escape hybrid/Mercury Mariner hybrid, for the relevant other group...
From: Sean Elkins on 4 Jul 2007 00:39 In article <1183512858.601125.191380(a)w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, "mrv(a)kluge.net" <mrv(a)kluge.net> wrote: giant snip > > So, just comparing similar vehicles MSRP with their expected fuel > use, > you'd pay $483.50 more for the comparable 2007 Corolla LE than for the > 2007 Prius. > > YMMV with state incentives of course. Also, for really calculating > ROI on a vehicle (not just purchase price and gasoline cost), you'd > need to calculate the different cost for maintenance, insurance, and > the big one: depreciation, which definitely makes the Prius even more > attractive. > > Yes, but you're not listening to me. I didn't buy a Corolla LE for 19K. I bought a Corolla CE for 14.4K. I don't care about an apples-to-apples comparison of similar features, since I do not desire to purchase a car with any of those features. You loaded your comparison Corolla to the max with stuff that isn't included on my car. I don't have a CD changer, or side airbags, or a moonroof or any of a number of things you padded onto the comparison. According to your final argument, which you calculated using the 19K number, the Prius would save me $483. If we redo the calculation using the car I actually own, it turns out that I save $4600 minus the $438, for a total savings of $4162. Depreciation isn't a factor, since the car will never be traded. I'll drive it until it isn't functional then go out and buy a new one.
From: Sean Elkins on 4 Jul 2007 00:47
In article <JeCdnflVna8XeBfbnZ2dnUVZ_veinZ2d(a)ptd.net>, "Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2(a)mailcity.com> wrote: > You said you couldn't have gotten any new Camry for under $15K new. Dealer > cost on the cheapest Camry is 16,952, few dealers in the US stock one like > that. You either live in a low wage county where they sell Toyotas for > less, you had a fairly late model trade, or the car was stolen. Perhaps > you meant a Corolla ;) > > mike > > OK, we are miscommunicating. What I bought was indeed a Corolla. My point was that comparing the Camry as a viable vehicle choice for me isn't really a good comparison. I don't think I will never spend that much money on a car when Toyota makes a perfectly fine car like the Corolla which I can purchase for much less. The Camry costs more and gets poorer gas mileage, therefore it's not really a car I would consider buying unless I somehow develop a need for the extra room. That $16,952 cost you quoted---is that for the five speed model they list? I wonder if one of those has ever left the factory? Have you EVER seen a Camry with a manual transmission, at least within the last few years? > "Sean Elkins" <sean_elkins(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:sean_elkins-374177.18064303072007(a)iglou.read.readnews.com... > > In article <D5KdnQYsK4dBNhfbnZ2dnUVZ_sCinZ2d(a)ptd.net>, > > "Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2(a)mailcity.com> wrote: > > > >> Where do you live, China? ;) > >> > >> mike > >> > > > > Can you explain this question? I don't understand your point. > > > >> "Sean Elkins" <sean_elkins(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message > >> news:sean_elkins-C6C6BB.11165703072007(a)iglou.read.readnews.com... > >> > In article <INrii.3127$fw2.2179(a)trnddc04>, > >> > Jeff <kidsdoc2000(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > >> > > >> >> Sean Elkins wrote: > >> >> > In article <elmop-FC1E79.07414103072007(a)nntp1.usenetserver.com>, > >> >> > "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop(a)nastydesigns.com> wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> >> In article <5eukqtF3a8nrdU2(a)mid.individual.net>, > >> >> >> Bill Putney <bptn(a)kinez.net> wrote: > >> >> >> > >> >> >>>> Most of the people I know drive something like a Chevy Silverado > >> >> >>>> that > >> >> >>>> costs > >> >> >>>> as much as 2 Priuses. > >> >> >>> ...because those other vehicles are a better value over their > >> >> >>> useful > >> >> >>> lives. > >> >> >> How so? > >> >> > > >> >> > I just bought a new Corolla (5-speed) that gets 32-41 mpg and I paid > >> >> > $14,400 on the road for it. I couldn't have gotten nearly the same > >> >> > discount on a Prius (msrp $22,175)) and at current gas prices the > >> >> > Prius > >> >> > wouldn't save the equivalent cost in gas to make up the difference > >> >> > in > >> >> > price over their useful lives. > >> >> > >> >> But, the cars have different options. A better comparison might have > >> >> been comparing a Camry and Prius. > >> >> > >> >> It is easier to compare the Honda Civic and Honda Civic Hybrid. > >> >> > >> >> Jeff > >> > > >> > I wasn't thinking about options, I was thinking about size. A Camry is > >> > a > >> > bigger car than a Prius, so I don't think that's a valid comparison. > >> > > >> > More to the point-- I would never consider buying a Camry when I can > >> > get > >> > a more economical car that serves my needs and gets better mileage. I > >> > couldn't have gotten any new Camry for under $15K new. |