From: Cathy F. on 3 Jul 2007 21:23
"C. E. White" <cewhite(a)mindspring.com> wrote in message
> I think the Prius is a very interesting car. But economically it is an
> irrational purchase. But so are lots of other car purchases. It is even
> more irrational to pay a lot for a used Prius. Sooner or later the battery
> pack will need to be replaced. Do you want to be holding the bag when this
As pointed out to Mike Hunter - more than once - & not just by moi, the
battery has a 8 year/100K mile warranty. I have kept only one car for as
long as 8 years (& that was back in '76 - '84) - I usually keep my cars for
6 years, & have never hit 100K miles. If I eventually get a Prius, having
to fork out $ to replace the battery won't be worrying to me, at all.
Simply because the chances of it happening will be next to nil.
> If your goal is minmal operating cost,
Yeah, it was in '04, hence the purchase of my 4th-in-a-row Corolla. But I
seriously looked into the Prius - test drove one (had to go 100 miles one
way, just to find one on a dealer's lot back then!) and did all of the
math - & really wanted one. But it would've cost - factoring in
everything - about $5K over the loaded Corolla, so I reluctantly dropped the
idea. Plus there was a minimum wait time of 5 months at that point, & I had
promised the buyer of my old Corolla that I'd sell it by "x" date - in 2
months, not 5 or more. So... may splurge a bit & treat myself to one next
then a 2 year old Focus is a
> much better idea than a used Prius. Since you truct CR, they give the
> Focus exactly the same level of recommendation as the Prius, and a used
> Focus can be picked up for a fraction of the cost of a used Prius.
From: mrv on 3 Jul 2007 21:34
On Jul 3, 8:48 am, Sean Elkins <sean_elk...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> I just bought a new Corolla (5-speed) that gets 32-41 mpg and I paid
> $14,400 on the road for it. I couldn't have gotten nearly the same
> discount on a Prius (msrp $22,175)) and at current gas prices the Prius
> wouldn't save the equivalent cost in gas to make up the difference in
> price over their useful lives.
Based on an older post:
and using US figures
2007 Prius: http://www.toyota.com/prius/specs.html
2007 Camry and Camry Hybrid: http://www.toyota.com/camry/specs.html
2007 Corolla: http://www.toyota.com/corolla/specs.html
I'm not quite sure why you are comparing the Prius with the
The Prius is a mid-size, and the Corolla is a compact. A better
comparison is to the mid-size Camry. And the EPA tests are
standardized, so you should use the same tests for comparason (city to
city or highway to highway or combined to combined).
Car Sum (interior+cargo volume) Diff to Prius
Prius 110.6 (96.2+14.4) +0.0
Camry 116.4 (101.4+15.0) +5.8
CamryH 112.0 (101.4+10.6) +1.4
Corolla 103.9 (90.3+13.6) -6.7
all listings in cu. ft.
Car City Highway
Prius 60 51
Camry 24 33
CamryH 40 38
Corolla 30 38
150,000 EPA miles, @ $3/gallon:
Prius @ 60MPG (city): 2500 gallons, $7500
Camry @ 24MPG (city): 6250 gallons, $18750, diff +$11250 to Prius
CamryH @ 40MPG (city): 3750 gallons, $11250, diff +$3750 to Prius
Corolla @ 30MPG (city): 5000 gallons, $15000, diff +$7500 to Prius
Prius @ 51MPG (highway): 2941 gallons, $8824
Camry @ 33MPG (highway): 4545 gallons, $13625, $4811 diff to Prius
CamryH @ 38MPG (highway): 3947 gallons, $11842, $3018 diff to Prius
Corolla @ 38MPG (highway): 3947 gallons, $11842, $3018 diff to Prius
But since you are comparing to a Corolla, we should use an accurate
comparison of the Prius and the Corolla, which means comparible
options. Since the Prius is an automatic (eCVT) v4 engine (MSRP
$22795 including the $620 Delivery, Processing, and Handling fee),
I'll use automatic Corolla LE (v4 engine) (MSRP $17035 with same $620
Then start adding in options. It looks like a number are standard
between the Corolla LE and the Prius: Power Windows, Power Door Locks,
Engine Immobilizer, Power Side Mirrors (Prius' is heated too), AC,
Remote Keyless Entry, 6 Speaker AM/FM/CD, Tilt Steering Wheel, and
Dual front airbags.
The Prius also includes ABS with tire pressure monitors, Traction
Control, Cruise Control, side and curtain air bags, a Rear Spoiler
(it's small, but it's there,) and Alloy wheels, which the Corolla LE
doesn't have standard, but available as options. ABS/tire pressure
monitor/traction control is package AB (MSRP $390), Cruise contol is
only available in the audio value package VV (MSRP $200) (this will
replace the Corolla's AM/FM/CD with a AM/FM/6 disc CD (same speakers)
so we add $589 for a 6-disc CD changer accessory to the Prius (which
then has a 7- disc CD capacity fyi)). Rear Spoiler accessory RF for
the Corolla is $425, and Alloy Wheels are package AW (accessory price
$499, package MSRP $390). The side airbags is package BE (MSRP
$655). To summarize, 390+200+425+390+655 = $2060 to add to the
Corolla to make it comparable to the Prius, while adding $589 to make
it comparable to the Corolla.
So that's 17035+2060 = $19095 for the Corolla LE w/ the appropriate
options and accessories. The Prius with the 6-disc changer is
22795+589 = $23384. The difference in MSRP is $4289 more for the
Prius than the Corolla.
Now, there's also tax incentives for the Prius. The US Federal
tax Hybrid Credit comes into effect, which for the 2007 Prius
purchased now through September 31, 2007 is $787.50.
There's also state incentives, depending on where you live (CO gives
$3,013 credit for a 2007 Prius (see http://www.revenue.state.co.us/fyi/html/income09.html
), for instance), but I'll ignore those state incentives for now
it's location dependent.
So with the current $787.50 Fed income tax credit as stated above,
price difference drops from $4289 to $3501.50.
So, if you always drove your car according to the EPA highway test
cycle, and gasoline was a stagnant $3/gallon over the time it takes
you to drive 150,000 miles, and you purchased a vehicle today, and
ignoring sales or excise taxes (based on the vehicle price): To
purchase the Prius you'd spend $3601.50 more than on the comparable
Corolla LE, but after 150,000 highway miles you'd spend $3018 more on
the Corolla LE than on the Prius.
So, just comparing similar vehicles MSRP with their expected fuel
you'd pay $483.50 more for the comparable 2007 Corolla LE than for the
YMMV with state incentives of course. Also, for really calculating
ROI on a vehicle (not just purchase price and gasoline cost), you'd
need to calculate the different cost for maintenance, insurance, and
the big one: depreciation, which definitely makes the Prius even more
From: mrv on 3 Jul 2007 21:44
On Jul 3, 7:50 pm, "C. E. White" <cewh...(a)mindspring.com> wrote:
> Good. But how about cradle to grave affect on the enviroment? Don't you
> wonder about the enviromental costs of the batteries?
Here's the 2004 Toyota Prius Green Report (life cycle assessment):
(you'll need to download the Japanese fonts for your PDF reader in
order to read it, but the entire document is written in English.)
Over the lifespan of the Prius, when compared to a comparable mid-
sized gasoline vehicle, the Prius comes out ahead in the life cycle
assessment (LCA) for airborne emissions for CO2, NOx, SOx, HC, but
actually does worse for PM (thanks to the material and vehicle
production stages). Lifespan is given as 10 years use/100,000km. The
CO2 break-even point for the 2004 Prius compared to this unnamed
gasoline vehicle is given at 20,000km. (more CO2 is emitted during
Prius production, but the Prius makes up for it over it's driven
The batteries are easily recycled, so not an environmental issue. (or
do you really believe the FUD about the Sudbury facility?)
Sorry, I don't have data on the Ford Escape hybrid/Mercury Mariner
hybrid, for the relevant other group...
From: Sean Elkins on 4 Jul 2007 00:39
In article <1183512858.601125.191380(a)w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
"mrv(a)kluge.net" <mrv(a)kluge.net> wrote:
> So, just comparing similar vehicles MSRP with their expected fuel
> you'd pay $483.50 more for the comparable 2007 Corolla LE than for the
> 2007 Prius.
> YMMV with state incentives of course. Also, for really calculating
> ROI on a vehicle (not just purchase price and gasoline cost), you'd
> need to calculate the different cost for maintenance, insurance, and
> the big one: depreciation, which definitely makes the Prius even more
Yes, but you're not listening to me. I didn't buy a Corolla LE for 19K.
I bought a Corolla CE for 14.4K. I don't care about an apples-to-apples
comparison of similar features, since I do not desire to purchase a car
with any of those features. You loaded your comparison Corolla to the
max with stuff that isn't included on my car. I don't have a CD changer,
or side airbags, or a moonroof or any of a number of things you padded
onto the comparison.
According to your final argument, which you calculated using the 19K
number, the Prius would save me $483. If we redo the calculation using
the car I actually own, it turns out that I save $4600 minus the $438,
for a total savings of $4162. Depreciation isn't a factor, since the car
will never be traded. I'll drive it until it isn't functional then go
out and buy a new one.
From: Sean Elkins on 4 Jul 2007 00:47
In article <JeCdnflVna8XeBfbnZ2dnUVZ_veinZ2d(a)ptd.net>,
"Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2(a)mailcity.com> wrote:
> You said you couldn't have gotten any new Camry for under $15K new. Dealer
> cost on the cheapest Camry is 16,952, few dealers in the US stock one like
> that. You either live in a low wage county where they sell Toyotas for
> less, you had a fairly late model trade, or the car was stolen. Perhaps
> you meant a Corolla ;)
OK, we are miscommunicating. What I bought was indeed a Corolla. My
point was that comparing the Camry as a viable vehicle choice for me
isn't really a good comparison. I don't think I will never spend that
much money on a car when Toyota makes a perfectly fine car like the
Corolla which I can purchase for much less.
The Camry costs more and gets poorer gas mileage, therefore it's not
really a car I would consider buying unless I somehow develop a need for
the extra room.
That $16,952 cost you quoted---is that for the five speed model they
list? I wonder if one of those has ever left the factory? Have you EVER
seen a Camry with a manual transmission, at least within the last few
> "Sean Elkins" <sean_elkins(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > In article <D5KdnQYsK4dBNhfbnZ2dnUVZ_sCinZ2d(a)ptd.net>,
> > "Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2(a)mailcity.com> wrote:
> >> Where do you live, China? ;)
> >> mike
> > Can you explain this question? I don't understand your point.
> >> "Sean Elkins" <sean_elkins(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> news:sean_elkins-C6C6BB.11165703072007(a)iglou.read.readnews.com...
> >> > In article <INrii.3127$fw2.2179(a)trnddc04>,
> >> > Jeff <kidsdoc2000(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Sean Elkins wrote:
> >> >> > In article <elmop-FC1E79.07414103072007(a)nntp1.usenetserver.com>,
> >> >> > "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop(a)nastydesigns.com> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> In article <5eukqtF3a8nrdU2(a)mid.individual.net>,
> >> >> >> Bill Putney <bptn(a)kinez.net> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>>> Most of the people I know drive something like a Chevy Silverado
> >> >> >>>> that
> >> >> >>>> costs
> >> >> >>>> as much as 2 Priuses.
> >> >> >>> ...because those other vehicles are a better value over their
> >> >> >>> useful
> >> >> >>> lives.
> >> >> >> How so?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I just bought a new Corolla (5-speed) that gets 32-41 mpg and I paid
> >> >> > $14,400 on the road for it. I couldn't have gotten nearly the same
> >> >> > discount on a Prius (msrp $22,175)) and at current gas prices the
> >> >> > Prius
> >> >> > wouldn't save the equivalent cost in gas to make up the difference
> >> >> > in
> >> >> > price over their useful lives.
> >> >>
> >> >> But, the cars have different options. A better comparison might have
> >> >> been comparing a Camry and Prius.
> >> >>
> >> >> It is easier to compare the Honda Civic and Honda Civic Hybrid.
> >> >>
> >> >> Jeff
> >> >
> >> > I wasn't thinking about options, I was thinking about size. A Camry is
> >> > a
> >> > bigger car than a Prius, so I don't think that's a valid comparison.
> >> >
> >> > More to the point-- I would never consider buying a Camry when I can
> >> > get
> >> > a more economical car that serves my needs and gets better mileage. I
> >> > couldn't have gotten any new Camry for under $15K new.