From: Jeff on
Mike Hunter wrote:
> What do you mean establish credibility? I never claimed to be able to
> access IRS returns for individual corporations.
>
> The fact is he IRS site list the amount of taxes paid by every publicly held
> corporation, IF they paid taxes, it is public record. If they did not pay
> taxes they will not be listed among those that did pay taxes.
>
> I don't record URLs from every place I visit anymore than do others.
> Certainly not from the IRS site, the last time I did a search. What makes
> you think I should search the site to get information for others? I could
> not care less what others choose to believe.
>
> How many times do one need to be told where to look? If one can't search a
> site to find information, as I do, that says something about that persons
> abilities, I supose.

Both Ed and I looked and searched and couldn't find it.

If the list of corporations that paid US taxes were publically
available, I bet the web site would at least be mentioned in the
methodology section of this paper: http://www.ctj.org/corpfed04an.pdf.
It mentions no data from the IRS, but it does mention getting data from
the SEC filings.

Do you think that if the IRS actually listed companies that paid taxes,
this would have been referenced?

How come this reminds me of VINs?

Basically, it comes to put up or shut up.

> One can also find the percentages for all federal income taxes paid by
> different income groups at the IRS site, as well.

And different industries. But not individual companies or which
companies paid taxes.

Jeff

> The last time I looked I
> discovered nearly half of all Americans with an income, pay NO federal
> taxes. Around 35%, of the lowest income group that do have income taxes
> withheld, get a refund greater than the amount withheld. The top 5% of
> earners in the US pay half of all the federal personal income taxes paid to
> the US treasury.
>
> The current income to the US treasury was GREATER in the last quarter than
> the amount the treasury has been spending. That has been true for the past
> three quarters, as well. That is why the federal budget deficit is coming
> down much faster than expected. No I don't have a URL for that either. ;)



> mike
>
> "Ed White" <ce.white3(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1184180728.145673.298690(a)22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
>> On Jul 10, 6:30 pm, "Mike Hunter" <mikehu...(a)mailcity.com> wrote:
>>> Well then show us where Toyota, or any Japanese corporation DID pay US
>>> Corporate taxes as you "claim". Should I say, 'otherwise you are making
>>> an
>>> unsupported claim. Considering how easy it is to cut and paste a URL, one
>>> would hope you would post the URL?'
>> No one but you has claimed to be able to access IRS returns for
>> individual corproations. We can't find an IRS site that provides this
>> sort of information, so no such sight can be posted. You are the one
>> claiming that there is an IRS site that provides corprate tax
>> information for individual corporations. I believe this site does not
>> exist. The Toyota annual report (available at
>> http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/ir/library/annual/index.html ) listes the
>> total amount of taxes paid by Toyota Motor Corporation, but
>> unfortunately this is not broken out by country.
>>
>>> I do not do homework for my own grand children what makes you think I
>>> will
>>> go and search the IRS site to find a URL for you? Do your own search
>>> like I
>>> did to fine that information. It is not my problem you can't find the
>>> information you seek, at the IRS site or the information you could not
>>> find
>>> at the Department of Commerce site, for that matter. LOL
>> This is not the same as doing homework for your grand children. This
>> is a simple request for you to back up a claim you have made that I
>> believe to be untrue. You can easily prove that it is true by simply
>> cutting and pasting a URL. Isn't establishing your credibility woth
>> the time this takes?
>>
>> Ed
>>
>>
>
>
From: C. E. White on

"Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2(a)mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:wradndPUMeU6-gjbnZ2dnUVZ_tmknZ2d(a)ptd.net...
> What do you mean establish credibility? I never claimed to be able to
> access IRS returns for individual corporations.
>
> The fact is he IRS site list the amount of taxes paid by every publicly
> held corporation, IF they paid taxes, it is public record. If they did
> not pay taxes they will not be listed among those that did pay taxes.
>
> I don't record URLs from every place I visit anymore than do others.
> Certainly not from the IRS site, the last time I did a search. What makes
> you think I should search the site to get information for others? I
> could not care less what others choose to believe.
>
> How many times do one need to be told where to look? If one can't search
> a site to find information, as I do, that says something about that
> persons abilities, I suppose.

It says more about your ethics I think. This is the same line of reasoning
you have used in the past when you made claims that were later shown to be
incorrect. It is true that corporate tax returns are public documents. I
imagine you can get copies by putting in a freedom of information request to
the IRS or directly to the corporation. Journalist and public interest
groups gather this information from time to time. However, I have search
extensively at the IRS, SEC, and GAO web sites and I cannot find a
comprehensive list of corporate tax returns that is accessible to the
general public. I'll put my web searching abilities up against your any day
of the week. I can find numerous lists of companies that paid no income tax
in certain years. Interestingly none of these lists include Toyota or any of
the Toyota subsidiaries incorporated in the US. Does this prove that Toyota
paid US income tax - No. It doesn't prove the opposite either.

Here is a references that lists corporations that pay no corporate income
taxes:

http://www.ctj.org/corpfed04pr.pdf

> One can also find the percentages for all federal income taxes paid by
> different income groups at the IRS site, as well. The last time I looked
> I discovered nearly half of all Americans with an income, pay NO federal
> taxes. Around 35%, of the lowest income group that do have income taxes
> withheld, get a refund greater than the amount withheld. The top 5% of
> earners in the US pay half of all the federal personal income taxes paid
> to the US treasury.

All very interesting and easily found but irrelevant as far as whether or
not Toyota pays US income taxes.

> The current income to the US treasury was GREATER in the last quarter than
> the amount the treasury has been spending. That has been true for the
> past three quarters, as well. That is why the federal budget deficit is
> coming down much faster than expected. No I don't have a URL for that
> either. ;)

Why not? US budget information is readily available on the web from a number
of sources. The Congressional Budget Office is one such source. According to
the CBO, the deficit for 2006 was 248.2 billion dollars which was much lower
than for fiscal year 2005, or 2004, or 2003, but much higher than 2002 (see
http://www.cbo.gov/budget/historical.pdf ). The CBO is still projecting a
budget deficit until at least 2012, so I am not sure how this squares with
your claims (see http://www.cbo.gov/budget/budproj.pdf ). The July 2006 CBO
report still show the US running a deficit through June of 2007, so again, I
am not sure where you are getting your information (see
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdoc.cfm?index=8285&type=1 ). The CBO does show June
2007 income exceeding June 2007 outlays, but that is typical for June since
it is a month where estimated tax payment are made.

Ed White


From: Jeff on
C. E. White wrote:
> "Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2(a)mailcity.com> wrote in message
> news:wradndPUMeU6-gjbnZ2dnUVZ_tmknZ2d(a)ptd.net...
>> What do you mean establish credibility? I never claimed to be able to
>> access IRS returns for individual corporations.
>>
>> The fact is he IRS site list the amount of taxes paid by every publicly
>> held corporation, IF they paid taxes, it is public record. If they did
>> not pay taxes they will not be listed among those that did pay taxes.
>>
>> I don't record URLs from every place I visit anymore than do others.
>> Certainly not from the IRS site, the last time I did a search. What makes
>> you think I should search the site to get information for others? I
>> could not care less what others choose to believe.
>>
>> How many times do one need to be told where to look? If one can't search
>> a site to find information, as I do, that says something about that
>> persons abilities, I suppose.
>
> It says more about your ethics I think.

I would say it shows more about his intellectual honesty to himself, as
well.

> This is the same line of reasoning
> you have used in the past when you made claims that were later shown to be
> incorrect.

Interestingly, when he had valid information about the speed limits in
the Commonwealth of PA, he was able to either cite the PA state legal
code or the web site where it was located.

> It is true that corporate tax returns are public documents. I
> imagine you can get copies by putting in a freedom of information request to
> the IRS or directly to the corporation. Journalist and public interest
> groups gather this information from time to time. However, I have search
> extensively at the IRS, SEC, and GAO web sites and I cannot find a
> comprehensive list of corporate tax returns that is accessible to the
> general public. I'll put my web searching abilities up against your any day
> of the week. I can find numerous lists of companies that paid no income tax
> in certain years. Interestingly none of these lists include Toyota or any of
> the Toyota subsidiaries incorporated in the US. Does this prove that Toyota
> paid US income tax - No. It doesn't prove the opposite either.
>
> Here is a references that lists corporations that pay no corporate income
> taxes:
>
> http://www.ctj.org/corpfed04pr.pdf

You can gleam some corp. income tax info from the SEC filings, which are
public records (you can find them at most company websites as well as
sites like finance.yahoo.com and the SEC website).

I don't think that you can get corporate income tax returns with a FOI
request. Why would the authors of the report go to such trouble to
figure out the US corp. income tax from the SEC filings when they could
simply do a FOI? And they would have mentioned the IRS web site that
says which companies did pay corp. income tax in the PDF document that
both of us mentioned.

>> One can also find the percentages for all federal income taxes paid by
>> different income groups at the IRS site, as well. The last time I looked
>> I discovered nearly half of all Americans with an income, pay NO federal
>> taxes. Around 35%, of the lowest income group that do have income taxes
>> withheld, get a refund greater than the amount withheld. The top 5% of
>> earners in the US pay half of all the federal personal income taxes paid
>> to the US treasury.
>
> All very interesting and easily found but irrelevant as far as whether or
> not Toyota pays US income taxes.

Unless one of the categories is "auto companies that sell more cars
worldwide than GM."

>> The current income to the US treasury was GREATER in the last quarter than
>> the amount the treasury has been spending. That has been true for the
>> past three quarters, as well. That is why the federal budget deficit is
>> coming down much faster than expected. No I don't have a URL for that
>> either. ;)
>
> Why not? US budget information is readily available on the web from a number
> of sources. The Congressional Budget Office is one such source. According to
> the CBO, the deficit for 2006 was 248.2 billion dollars which was much lower
> than for fiscal year 2005, or 2004, or 2003, but much higher than 2002 (see
> http://www.cbo.gov/budget/historical.pdf ). The CBO is still projecting a
> budget deficit until at least 2012, so I am not sure how this squares with
> your claims (see http://www.cbo.gov/budget/budproj.pdf ). The July 2006 CBO
> report still show the US running a deficit through June of 2007, so again, I
> am not sure where you are getting your information (see
> http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdoc.cfm?index=8285&type=1 ). The CBO does show June
> 2007 income exceeding June 2007 outlays, but that is typical for June since
> it is a month where estimated tax payment are made.
>
> Ed White

The sad part is that Mike has a lot of info to offer. For it to be
useful, he has to learn to admit when he is wrong. Even I am wrong,
sometimes.

Jeff
From: Mike Hunter on
I will. and I have.........if I'm wrong but I am not wrong when I say Toyota
does not pay a penny in US corporate income taxes. NOBODY can show that
statement to be wrong because it is a fact. ;)


mike


"Jeff" <kidsdoc2000(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:TIgli.9844$qu4.3788(a)trndny06...
> C. E. White wrote:
>> "Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2(a)mailcity.com> wrote in message
>> news:wradndPUMeU6-gjbnZ2dnUVZ_tmknZ2d(a)ptd.net...
>>> What do you mean establish credibility? I never claimed to be able to
>>> access IRS returns for individual corporations.
>>>
>>> The fact is he IRS site list the amount of taxes paid by every publicly
>>> held corporation, IF they paid taxes, it is public record. If they did
>>> not pay taxes they will not be listed among those that did pay taxes.
>>>
>>> I don't record URLs from every place I visit anymore than do others.
>>> Certainly not from the IRS site, the last time I did a search. What
>>> makes you think I should search the site to get information for others?
>>> I could not care less what others choose to believe.
>>>
>>> How many times do one need to be told where to look? If one can't
>>> search a site to find information, as I do, that says something about
>>> that persons abilities, I suppose.
>>
>
> The sad part is that Mike has a lot of info to offer. For it to be useful,
> he has to learn to admit when he is wrong. Even I am wrong, sometimes.
>
> Jeff


From: Jeff on
Mike Hunter wrote:
> I will. and I have.........if I'm wrong but I am not wrong when I say Toyota
> does not pay a penny in US corporate income taxes. NOBODY can show that
> statement to be wrong because it is a fact. ;)

On your planet, perhaps.

But you have yet to support your statement. And I have provided evidence
that Toyota pays income taxes (from the economics school at MIT
(<http://ocw.mit.edu/NR/rdonlyres/Sloan-School-of-Management/15-518Taxes-and-Business-StrategyFall2002/7F7B31D6-7700-4089-89CF-9DA14E268FDD/0/session14.pdf>)
- perhaps you have heard of that place) as well as evidence that the IRS
does not have a website lists corporate income tax payers. I mean why
would the authors of this study go to so much trouble to compute the US
corporate income taxes that companies don't pay when they could look it
up on a web page?

http://www.ctj.org/corpfed04pr.pdf

You know that Toyota doesn't pay income taxes, just like you know that
VIN have a first digit that indicates US content? Do you work for Toyota
or the IRS?

Sorry, but your claim that you know something for a fact doesn't wash
with those are able to think for themselves. Based on your history, you
have no credibility.

Unless you can actually provide evidence to back your claim, I will not
waste my time and respond to you on this thread.

Jeff

> mike
>
>
> "Jeff" <kidsdoc2000(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:TIgli.9844$qu4.3788(a)trndny06...
>> C. E. White wrote:
>>> "Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2(a)mailcity.com> wrote in message
>>> news:wradndPUMeU6-gjbnZ2dnUVZ_tmknZ2d(a)ptd.net...
>>>> What do you mean establish credibility? I never claimed to be able to
>>>> access IRS returns for individual corporations.
>>>>
>>>> The fact is he IRS site list the amount of taxes paid by every publicly
>>>> held corporation, IF they paid taxes, it is public record. If they did
>>>> not pay taxes they will not be listed among those that did pay taxes.
>>>>
>>>> I don't record URLs from every place I visit anymore than do others.
>>>> Certainly not from the IRS site, the last time I did a search. What
>>>> makes you think I should search the site to get information for others?
>>>> I could not care less what others choose to believe.
>>>>
>>>> How many times do one need to be told where to look? If one can't
>>>> search a site to find information, as I do, that says something about
>>>> that persons abilities, I suppose.
>> The sad part is that Mike has a lot of info to offer. For it to be useful,
>> he has to learn to admit when he is wrong. Even I am wrong, sometimes.
>>
>> Jeff
>
>