The Drive-a-Toyota Act
in [Toyota]
|
From: Bill Putney on 5 Jul 2007 18:10 Ray O wrote: > "Edwin Pawlowski" <esp(a)snet.net> wrote in message > news:C03ji.1484$eY.997(a)newssvr13.news.prodigy.net... > >>"Jeff" <kidsdoc2000(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message >> >>> All indications are that the batteries do not wear out. >> >>Sure. >> >>"Life of the car" for my use is 15 years and 200,000 miles. When they >>prove that, I'll buy one. > > > This probably does not count as "proof," but here is some information on > Prius battery life. > > Here is a story about a Prius in taxi service with over 200,000 miles: > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8839690/ > > According to this page on Toyota's web site, Toyota has not sold a single > battery pack replacement due to wear and tear since the Prius went on sale > in 2000: http://www.toyota.com/about/environment/technology/2004/hybrid.html > > Here is Road & Track's take on whether it is cost-effective to replace the > battery pack in a worst-case scenario where it has to be replaced after 8 > years when the warranty expires: > http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=19&article_id=1183 Interesting articles. I found a few sentences from the middle link interesting: (1) "Why doesn't Prius offer a plug-in option so it can run in electric-only mode? Great efforts went into making hybrid cars so they DON'T have to be plugged in. If a car is converted, it will have a negative effect on the life of the batteries and the reality is that it's likely the grid electricity being used is derived from coal, so there's not much, if any, savings to the environment..." Begs the question: Why is a one-off gasoline powered (essentially, distributed) system better for the environment than power derived from an extremely optimized (for efficiency and emissions) large (centralized) power plant? (2) "...Additionally, the electric-only mode would be good for less than a mile at low speed, so the practicality of it is very limited." Umm - what does that tell you about the efficiency of the car? That it is mostly due to an extremely efficient IC engine. I submit that the regenerative braking is a small part of the efficiency to the degree that the extra weight of the batteries and added complexity of the electrical system is beyond the point of diminishing returns. IOW - it would be interesting to not only disable, but to uninstall the batteries and their controls (i.e., convert in the opposite direction) to see what the operational characteristics and fuel economy are with the lower weight - even without regen. braking. The results might be extremely telling. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
From: Bill Putney on 5 Jul 2007 18:21 who wrote: > ...A Prius might then be running as a mild hybrid, not going so far on > battery only. According to the Toyota article, the car would go less than a mile on battery alone at low speed. What does that tell you about where the car gets most of its fuel efficiency from? (hint: a very efficient IC engine) As I said in another post, it would be interesting for someone to rip out the batteries and control electronics and see what the economy would be with just the IC engine. It might be found that the savings due to lower weight might just about offset the gains from regenerative braking. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
From: Jeff on 5 Jul 2007 18:27 Mike Hunter wrote: > Those if favor of "tax" assistance do not think of the fact they are the > ones paying the tax money that is used to "assist," and that is going to a > foreign corporation that pays NO US federal corporate income taxes ;) But it's US subsidies do. Jeff > mike > > <dold(a)12.usenet.us.com> wrote in message news:f6gclb$dij$3(a)blue.rahul.net... >> In alt.autos.ford Bill Putney <bptn(a)kinez.net> wrote: >>> You can subtract the $787.50 from the savings because *somenone* (the >>> taxapyer) pays for that. Only if you are a liberal do you ignore such >>> costs. >> Only if there were no hybrids. I would like to thank you for paying your >> portion of my rebate, but the source of it doesn't affect the fit in my >> pocket. I think of it along the same lines as the development cost for >> Velcro, also funded by the taxpayer. > >
From: Bill Putney on 5 Jul 2007 18:28 B A R R Y wrote: > who wrote: > >> In article <VzZii.7981$7k7.3835(a)trnddc01>, >> Jeff <kidsdoc2000(a)hotmail.com> wrote: >> >>> There is no indication that the life of the batteries are a limiting >>> factor to the life of the car. All indications are that the batteries >>> do not wear out. >> >> >> Dream on. >> Currently rechargeable batteries start going down hill at about 3 years. >> The fact that they are much weaker between 5 and the 8 yr guarantee >> point would not be that noticeable as the Prius battery is very large. >> A Prius might then be running as a mild hybrid, not going so far on >> battery only. > > > Which would cause the gas mileage to drop. > > My in-laws are still driving a first generation Prius, a 2002, with over > 100k. The MPG is the same as it ever was. Ha ha! But Toyota slipped up by uncluding in that article that it would not even go a mile on battery only. That says that the battery is a small factor in its overall economy. And in most driving situations, regenerative braking probably barely (or doesn't quite) make up for the extra weight of batteries and controls it is carrying around. (IOW - the economy is from a small, optimized-for-efficiency IC engine.) Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
From: Ray O on 5 Jul 2007 18:57
"Bill Putney" <bptn(a)kinez.net> wrote in message news:5f58hpF3altuaU1(a)mid.individual.net... <snipped> > Interesting articles. > > I found a few sentences from the middle link interesting: > > (1) "Why doesn't Prius offer a plug-in option so it can run in > electric-only mode? Great efforts went into making hybrid cars so they > DON'T have to be plugged in. If a car is converted, it will have a > negative effect on the life of the batteries and the reality is that it's > likely the grid electricity being used is derived from coal, so there's > not much, if any, savings to the environment..." > > Begs the question: Why is a one-off gasoline powered (essentially, > distributed) system better for the environment than power derived from an > extremely optimized (for efficiency and emissions) large (centralized) > power plant? > Toyota had the electric Rav 4 which ran only in plug-in mode, but its limited range kept it from being very practical. Toyota has found that there is demand for a hybrid drive with plug-in mode and is in the process of developing one. Toyota faces the same physics that GM has with its Vold concept, and that is that without a very large or (expensive) efficient battery pack, the range from electric only mode is very short. Keep in mind that Toyota is avoiding deeply discharging or charging the battery to prolong its useful life. A larger battery pack would reduce passenger or luggage space in the vehicle, so the practical solution is a lithium ion battery with more storage capactiy. > (2) "...Additionally, the electric-only mode would be good for less than a > mile at low speed, so the practicality of it is very limited." > > Umm - what does that tell you about the efficiency of the car? That it is > mostly due to an extremely efficient IC engine. I submit that the > regenerative braking is a small part of the efficiency to the degree that > the extra weight of the batteries and added complexity of the electrical > system is beyond the point of diminishing returns. IOW - it would be > interesting to not only disable, but to uninstall the batteries and their > controls (i.e., convert in the opposite direction) to see what the > operational characteristics and fuel economy are with the lower weight - > even without regen. braking. The results might be extremely telling. > > Bill Putney > (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address > with the letter 'x') I am merely dispelling the false notion that hybrid battery packs have a short life span and need frequent and costly replacement. I am not promoting hybrid vehicles as the solution for everyone on the road. In my personal opinion, hybrids are close, but not quite at the point where they are fuel-efficient and cost-effective enough to convince ME to buy one. Another possible barrier to acquiring a hybrid for me is that they may be too complex for me to diagnose without having to invest in a repair manual and diagnostic computer. Current OBD II diagnostic systems are for the most part very logically programmed and easy enough to figure out with an OBD II code scanner and volt-ohm meter, but I don't know if this will be true with a hybrid controller. -- Ray O (correct punctuation to reply) |