From: Joe Pfeiffer on
Bill Putney <bptn(a)kinez.net> writes:

> This has nothing directly to do with this discussion, but Al Gore's
> son was arrested today for illegal possession of about 5 different
> drugs. But the interesting thing is that, prior to the finding of
> drugs, he was initially stopped for doing over 100 mph in a Prius.
> There has to be a Far Side´┐Ż cartoon in that story somewhere.

Or a Volkswagen ad (remember "They Said It Couldn't Be Done"?)
From: Ray O on

"Jeff" <kidsdoc2000(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:VzZii.7981$7k7.3835(a)trnddc01...
> Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>> In article <_mZii.3427$bO2.2057(a)trnddc05>,
>> Jeff <kidsdoc2000(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> And the batteries, according to the testing by Toyota, should be good
>>> for the life of the car.
>>
>> I hate hearing statements like that.
>>
>> What that tells me is that Toyota says that when the batteries go out, by
>> definition you've reached the end of life of the car.
>>
>> That does NOT tell me that the batteries last a long time.
>
> Perhaps you should read the referenced article before commenting on one
> sentence about the article.
>
> There is no indication that the life of the batteries are a limiting
> factor to the life of the car. All indications are that the batteries do
> not wear out.
>
> Jeff

Conventional wisdom says that batteries have a fairly limited life, as most
people experience with UPS devices, cell phones, and re-chargeable
batteries. The charge controller in the Prius is programmed to prevent the
battery pack from discharging or charging past the optimal range. There are
Prius in taxi service with over 200,000 miles, and Toyota has yet to sell a
replacement battery pack other than for defects during warranty coverage or
for collisions. The correct answer is "yes, the Prius battery pack has a
finite life, but none of the Prius vehicles sold has reached the end of its
useful life yet."

BTW, there are plenty of automatic transmissions with well over 200,000
miles that are still in good working condition as well.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)


From: Edwin Pawlowski on

"Jeff" <kidsdoc2000(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> All indications are that the batteries do not wear out.

Sure.

"Life of the car" for my use is 15 years and 200,000 miles. When they prove
that, I'll buy one.


From: Mike Marlow on

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop(a)nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-1ACDE4.23241304072007(a)nntp1.usenetserver.com...
> In article <27f8f$468c5b4b$471fb864$11322(a)ALLTEL.NET>,
> "Mike Marlow" <mmarlowREMOVE(a)alltel.net> wrote:
>
>> Most GM trannys will easily go well over
>> 200,000 with only the most modest of care.
>
> Yeah. Too bad they're not attached to any cars by that point.
>

Silly...

--

-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE(a)alltel.net


From: Bill Putney on
Jeff wrote:
> Bill Putney wrote:
>
>> Jeff wrote:
>>
>>> Bill Putney wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jeff wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Bill Putney wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In article <5f1c31F3ald6iU1(a)mid.individual.net>,
>>>>>>> Bill Putney <bptn(a)kinez.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And your hit on resale will be very big because potential buyers
>>>>>>>> (the conscious ones anyway) will factor in the essential
>>>>>>>> certainty that they will need to replace the batteries shortly
>>>>>>>> down the road.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just like potential buyers will factor in the essential certainty
>>>>>>> that they will have a very expensive transmission repair on any
>>>>>>> other car.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's BS. There is a *small* chance that there will be a major
>>>>>> tranny problem on a given used car - yes, it is a risk, just as
>>>>>> there is a risk that you'll walk outside and get run over by a
>>>>>> truck, but nowhere near a certainty. Yet the batteries have a very
>>>>>> understood *finite* life. You're really reaching with that argument.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If it is so well understood, why don't you give us some references
>>>>> about the life of a battery pack?
>>>>>
>>>>> Transmissions, engines, people - all have finite life times, too.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>
>>>>>> Bill Putney
>>>>>> (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
>>>>>> address with the letter 'x')
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You ever deal with computer UPS battery packs in a large company?
>>>> Battery life is *much* more finite than automatic transmissions -
>>>> very narrow bell curve.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The technology for most UPS's is lead acid battery.
>>>
>>> The technology for hybrid cars is nickel hydride.
>>>
>>> You are comparing Apples and Oranges.
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>>
>>>> Bill Putney
>>>> (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
>>>> address with the letter 'x')
>>
>>
>> Life of NiMH batteries is limited to 800 to 1000 charge/discharge
>> cycles - so end-of-life is predictable to a great extent.
>>
>> If deep discharged, power capacity and useable life are greatly
>> reduced after 200-300 charge/discharge cycles.
>>
>> So - yeah - used market value should be affected quite a bit by answer
>> to question "Were batteries replaced yet?".
>
>
> Except that hybrid cars don't deep cycle the batteries. And the
> batteries, according to the testing by Toyota, should be good for the
> life of the car.
>
> <http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/hybrid-batteries-none-the-worse-for-wear-cga.htm>
>
>
> I suspect that Toyota knows far more about how long the batteries will
> last than either you or me.
>
> Unless you can offer some authoritative information, I am not going to
> waste my time answering to an know-it-all who is, once again, wrong.
>
> Jeff


So when someone comes along who knows the technology and is skeptical
when that is bounced against an auto maker's "word" that contradicts
what is known about the technology, then that person is labeled a
"know-it-all". I guess that's one way to win an argument. Not honest,
but it is one way.

I didn't say the deep charge is a given - I threw that in as extra
information for a battrery abuse situation. Certainly - go by the 800
to 100 cycles. See how far down the road that gets you.

"Life of the car" defined as, what - 100k miles? 150k miles. No one
trusts auto manufcturers when they make promises like that - except when
they want to to support a politically-based claim.

IF they want to warranty it like that, then they should. If they really
mean it, then why don't they warranty it like that? Or do they know the
real statisitics that say they'd lose money like crazy if they did. If
they really believed that, they at least should give lifetime battery
warranty until their statement can be proven after a number of years and
the public's confidence can, from real-wold proof, substitute for a car
maker's say-so. I *never* make a decision based on "the check's in the
mail" type commitments from automakers. Been burned too many times to
do that.

Party on, Garth!

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')