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From: C. E. White on 16 Mar 2010 08:27
"jim beam" <me(a)privacy.net> wrote in message
news:coOdnZXYStF3mQLWnZ2dnUVZ_o6dnZ2d(a)speakeasy.net...

>> Enough of this BS. Cite an example of when I have supported using
>> tax
>> payer dollars to out source jobs to China.
>
> er, every time you post your g.m. astroturf ed. g.m. outsource
> component supply to china on a grand scale. each seat, each engine
> computer, each instrument cluster, each windshield, each driveshaft,
> each brake cylinder and caliper they have made in china is sending
> american taxpayer dollars to support chinese jobs. and you are such
> a moral bankrupt, you're prepared to take g.m. [taxpayer] dollars to
> keep that happening.

Maybe this make sense to you, but it seem incomprehensible to me. I
don't support the idea of GM being bailed out by the government. As
for outsourcing - you seem to have the idea that if you buy Toyotas
or Hondas, there will be less outsourcing to Asia. Is this what you
really think? Do you contend that Toyota outsources to Asia less than
GM? There is adequate evidence that GM cars include on average higher
domestic content than Toyotas (see
http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2009/07/domestic-parts-content-and-automakers.html )
.. So, why aren't you attacking Toyota for outsourcing?

Ed


From: jim beam on 16 Mar 2010 10:32
On 03/16/2010 05:27 AM, C. E. White wrote:
> "jim beam"<me(a)privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:coOdnZXYStF3mQLWnZ2dnUVZ_o6dnZ2d(a)speakeasy.net...
>
>>> Enough of this BS. Cite an example of when I have supported using
>>> tax
>>> payer dollars to out source jobs to China.
>>
>> er, every time you post your g.m. astroturf ed. g.m. outsource
>> component supply to china on a grand scale. each seat, each engine
>> computer, each instrument cluster, each windshield, each driveshaft,
>> each brake cylinder and caliper they have made in china is sending
>> american taxpayer dollars to support chinese jobs. and you are such
>> a moral bankrupt, you're prepared to take g.m. [taxpayer] dollars to
>> keep that happening.
>
> Maybe this make sense to you, but it seem incomprehensible to me. I
> don't support the idea of GM being bailed out by the government.

but you take their money and you regurgitate their party line ed. ergo,
you're bullshitting and your actions /are/ supporting the bailout. your
moral bankruptcy is not a problem for you apparently.


> As
> for outsourcing - you seem to have the idea that if you buy Toyotas
> or Hondas, there will be less outsourcing to Asia. Is this what you
> really think? Do you contend that Toyota outsources to Asia less than
> GM? There is adequate evidence that GM cars include on average higher
> domestic content than Toyotas (see
> http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2009/07/domestic-parts-content-and-automakers.html )
> . So, why aren't you attacking Toyota for outsourcing?

artful deceit ed. but you're no stranger to that.

1. i said "CHINA", not "asia". it's not all the same out there, just in
case you didn't know.

2. toyota not only build their cars here in the good old usa, but they
do so with usa sourced components. g.m. use a large proportion of
chinese components here in the usa. add to that the fact that japan is
an important ally in asia and china is a belligerent with territorial
ambitions that slaughters democracy supporters and you have a serious
problem when you're sending taxpayer dollars to china via g.m.'s
outsourcing.


>
> Ed

make that "morally bankrupt ed"

--
nomina rutrum rutrum
From: C. E. White on 16 Mar 2010 13:03

"jim beam" <me(a)privacy.net> wrote in message
news:j5idna5TrenjCwLWnZ2dnUVZ_qUAAAAA(a)speakeasy.net...
> On 03/16/2010 05:27 AM, C. E. White wrote:
>> "jim beam"<me(a)privacy.net> wrote in message
>> news:coOdnZXYStF3mQLWnZ2dnUVZ_o6dnZ2d(a)speakeasy.net...
>>
>>>> Enough of this BS. Cite an example of when I have supported using
>>>> tax
>>>> payer dollars to out source jobs to China.
>>>
>>> er, every time you post your g.m. astroturf ed. g.m. outsource
>>> component supply to china on a grand scale. each seat, each
>>> engine
>>> computer, each instrument cluster, each windshield, each
>>> driveshaft,
>>> each brake cylinder and caliper they have made in china is sending
>>> american taxpayer dollars to support chinese jobs. and you are
>>> such
>>> a moral bankrupt, you're prepared to take g.m. [taxpayer] dollars
>>> to
>>> keep that happening.
>>
>> Maybe this make sense to you, but it seem incomprehensible to me. I
>> don't support the idea of GM being bailed out by the government.
>
> but you take their money and you regurgitate their party line ed.
> ergo, you're bullshitting and your actions /are/ supporting the
> bailout. your moral bankruptcy is not a problem for you apparently.

Another ridiculous statement. Initially I was not opposed to the
government loaning GM money. And in fact that is being paid back. I
was, and remain, opposed to the goverment takeover of GM. What was
done was illegal. It amounted to a nationalization of GM. GM should
have been treated jsut like any other corporation that could not pay
its debts. It should have been forced into bankruptcy. I doubt it
would have disappeared. It porbably would be in at least as good
condition as it is now. The only difference would be that the UAW and
corrupt executives would not have gotten a big pay day. I am not sure
which of my actions you feel are supporting a bailout. I suppose in
your twisted mind any discussion of Toyota problems amounts to
supporting GM. It is a ridiculous bit of logic, but the more I read of
your rants, the more I believe facts don't interest you at all. You
are just looking for an excuse, any excuse, to rant about GM. Are you
an unhappy ex-GM employee? Or maybe a supplier they dumped?

It seems to me your logic works like this:

1) Ed posted article links and commented related to the Toyota UA
problems
2) Toyota UA problems are a plot by the Goverment to smear Toyota and
prop up GM
3) Therefore Ed must be part of the plot
4) Therefore Ed must be on GM's payroll

Are you really that stupid?

>> As
>> for outsourcing - you seem to have the idea that if you buy
>> Toyotas
>> or Hondas, there will be less outsourcing to Asia. Is this what you
>> really think? Do you contend that Toyota outsources to Asia less
>> than
>> GM? There is adequate evidence that GM cars include on average
>> higher
>> domestic content than Toyotas (see
>> http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2009/07/domestic-parts-content-and-automakers.html )
>> . So, why aren't you attacking Toyota for outsourcing?
>
> artful deceit ed. but you're no stranger to that.
>
> 1. i said "CHINA", not "asia". it's not all the same out there,
> just in case you didn't know.

OK, I get it Japan good, China bad. Where does Korea fall? How about
Vietnam? Thailand? India? I suppose in your mind since you claim to
like Hondas, outsourcing to Japan is wonderful. It is OK if we loose
American jobs to the Japanese, but it they go to China, well that is a
different matter. Have I got that right? Are you that big a hypocrite?
You do understand that Toyota and Honda buy parts from other Asian
suppleir - right? The last Toyota brand oil filter I installed on a
RAV4 was made in Thailand. The Toyota brand floor mats I bought for my
Mom's Highlander were made in China. I don't like the move to Asian
suppliers. Given an option, I'd prefer to buy from American suppliers.
Unfortunately it is not that easy to do.

> 2. toyota not only build their cars here in the good old usa, but
> they do so with usa sourced components. g.m. use a large proportion
> of chinese components here in the usa. add to that the fact that
> japan is an important ally in asia and china is a belligerent with
> territorial ambitions that slaughters democracy supporters and you
> have a serious problem when you're sending taxpayer dollars to china
> via g.m.'s outsourcing.

Look at the reference I posted -
http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2009/07/domestic-parts-content-and-automakers.html
I suppose that is to much trouble for you, so here is the important
chart from that reference:

Weighted for sales, here's how the big players measure up in
domestic-parts content:


GM: 69%
Ford Motor Co.: 64%
Chrysler Corp.: 60%
Honda/Acura: 58%
Toyota/Lexus/Scion: 44%
Nissan/Infiniti: 31%
Mitsubishi: 25%
Subaru: 20%
Mercedes-Benz: 16%
Suzuki: 12%
Mazda: 11%
Volkswagen/Audi: 9%
BMW/Mini: 5%
Jaguar/Land Rover: 3%
Porsche: 3%

So while GM is clearly outsourcing a lot of stuff overseas, they are
still as good as it gets at buying domestic parts (domestic = US +
Canada).

I am not comfortable dealing with China. Give me an alternative. You
seem to have some wacko idea that Toyota doesn't deal with China. That
is not true at all. See:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/Business/Toyota-sets-up-fourth-factory-in-China/2007/04/21/1176697131427.html
http://www.danmex.org/spansk/tekst.php?id=103
Denso, Toyota' captive parts manufacturer has heavily invested in
China.
http://www.densocorp-na.com/visiononline/2006spring/s31.html
http://www.densomediacenter.com/news/newsreleases.php?ArticleID=560

There are many many references to Toyota operating in China. Is that
OK with you?

> nomina rutrum rutrum

At least credit the column you stole this tag line from. As I pointed
out it is not proper Latin (or English) but it sort of fits your modus
operandi - screwed up stolen ideas that you didn't bother to check.


Ed


From: jim beam on 16 Mar 2010 23:39
On 03/16/2010 10:03 AM, C. E. White wrote:
> "jim beam"<me(a)privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:j5idna5TrenjCwLWnZ2dnUVZ_qUAAAAA(a)speakeasy.net...
>> On 03/16/2010 05:27 AM, C. E. White wrote:
>>> "jim beam"<me(a)privacy.net> wrote in message
>>> news:coOdnZXYStF3mQLWnZ2dnUVZ_o6dnZ2d(a)speakeasy.net...
>>>
>>>>> Enough of this BS. Cite an example of when I have supported using
>>>>> tax
>>>>> payer dollars to out source jobs to China.
>>>>
>>>> er, every time you post your g.m. astroturf ed. g.m. outsource
>>>> component supply to china on a grand scale. each seat, each
>>>> engine
>>>> computer, each instrument cluster, each windshield, each
>>>> driveshaft,
>>>> each brake cylinder and caliper they have made in china is sending
>>>> american taxpayer dollars to support chinese jobs. and you are
>>>> such
>>>> a moral bankrupt, you're prepared to take g.m. [taxpayer] dollars
>>>> to
>>>> keep that happening.
>>>
>>> Maybe this make sense to you, but it seem incomprehensible to me. I
>>> don't support the idea of GM being bailed out by the government.
>>
>> but you take their money and you regurgitate their party line ed.
>> ergo, you're bullshitting and your actions /are/ supporting the
>> bailout. your moral bankruptcy is not a problem for you apparently.
>
> Another ridiculous statement. Initially I was not opposed to the
> government loaning GM money. And in fact that is being paid back. I
> was, and remain, opposed to the goverment takeover of GM. What was
> done was illegal. It amounted to a nationalization of GM. GM should
> have been treated jsut like any other corporation that could not pay
> its debts. It should have been forced into bankruptcy. I doubt it
> would have disappeared. It porbably would be in at least as good
> condition as it is now. The only difference would be that the UAW and
> corrupt executives would not have gotten a big pay day. I am not sure
> which of my actions you feel are supporting a bailout. I suppose in
> your twisted mind any discussion of Toyota problems amounts to
> supporting GM. It is a ridiculous bit of logic, but the more I read of
> your rants, the more I believe facts don't interest you at all. You
> are just looking for an excuse, any excuse, to rant about GM. Are you
> an unhappy ex-GM employee? Or maybe a supplier they dumped?
>
> It seems to me your logic works like this:
>
> 1) Ed posted article links and commented related to the Toyota UA
> problems
> 2) Toyota UA problems are a plot by the Goverment to smear Toyota and
> prop up GM
> 3) Therefore Ed must be part of the plot
> 4) Therefore Ed must be on GM's payroll
>
> Are you really that stupid?

no ed, "stupid" would be believing that because you walk like a duck,
quack like a duck and hang out with other ducks posting propaganda
bullshit on the web [astroturfing], that you're really a fluffy bunny
that's not a failed lobbyist..


>
>>> As
>>> for outsourcing - you seem to have the idea that if you buy
>>> Toyotas
>>> or Hondas, there will be less outsourcing to Asia. Is this what you
>>> really think? Do you contend that Toyota outsources to Asia less
>>> than
>>> GM? There is adequate evidence that GM cars include on average
>>> higher
>>> domestic content than Toyotas (see
>>> http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2009/07/domestic-parts-content-and-automakers.html )
>>> . So, why aren't you attacking Toyota for outsourcing?
>>
>> artful deceit ed. but you're no stranger to that.
>>
>> 1. i said "CHINA", not "asia". it's not all the same out there,
>> just in case you didn't know.
>
> OK, I get it Japan good, China bad. Where does Korea fall? How about
> Vietnam? Thailand? India?

you goddamned hypocrite. you deliberately hide specifics by bleating
about "asia", now you're trying to be "specific"??? why weren't you
"specific" before ed? because it didn't suit your deliberately
attempted deception perchance? [rhetorical]


> I suppose in your mind since you claim to
> like Hondas, outsourcing to Japan is wonderful. It is OK if we loose
> American jobs to the Japanese,

what? like all the "japanese" jobs in kentucky, texas, indiana,
alabama, w. virginia, mississippi, etc. obviously you're not talking
abut all the "american" jobs g.m. has sent to china.


> but it they go to China, well that is a
> different matter. Have I got that right? Are you that big a hypocrite?

oh, i'm a hypocrite alright - i want an american manufacturer, living on
american tax dollar life support, to source their components from
american manufacturers. you got me bang to rights on that one ed.


> You do understand that Toyota and Honda buy parts from other Asian
> suppleir - right? The last Toyota brand oil filter I installed on a
> RAV4 was made in Thailand. The Toyota brand floor mats I bought for my
> Mom's Highlander were made in China. I don't like the move to Asian
> suppliers. Given an option, I'd prefer to buy from American suppliers.
> Unfortunately it is not that easy to do.

it's easy to do. and for an american manufacturer using american
taxpayer dollars - the one you shill for - it's /right/ to do.


>
>> 2. toyota not only build their cars here in the good old usa, but
>> they do so with usa sourced components. g.m. use a large proportion
>> of chinese components here in the usa. add to that the fact that
>> japan is an important ally in asia and china is a belligerent with
>> territorial ambitions that slaughters democracy supporters and you
>> have a serious problem when you're sending taxpayer dollars to china
>> via g.m.'s outsourcing.
>
> Look at the reference I posted -
> http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2009/07/domestic-parts-content-and-automakers.html
> I suppose that is to much trouble for you, so here is the important
> chart from that reference:
>
> Weighted for sales,

weighted for sales??? what kind of bullshit is that? a vehicle with
80% domestic parts content [camry] gets rolled into only 44% as a
"toyota" rating??? that's oh-so-convenient bullshit like your frod
single vehicle rollover fatalities on the exploder being 3x that of it's
nearest other vehicle getting lost in the noise of other driver
demographics.. bullshit shilling astroturfer.



> here's how the big players measure up in
> domestic-parts content:
>
>
> GM: 69%
> Ford Motor Co.: 64%
> Chrysler Corp.: 60%
> Honda/Acura: 58%
> Toyota/Lexus/Scion: 44%
> Nissan/Infiniti: 31%
> Mitsubishi: 25%
> Subaru: 20%
> Mercedes-Benz: 16%
> Suzuki: 12%
> Mazda: 11%
> Volkswagen/Audi: 9%
> BMW/Mini: 5%
> Jaguar/Land Rover: 3%
> Porsche: 3%

where do you get these numbers ed? ed "the guy in the street", but who
happens to have all the industry stats at his disposal, fully sanitized,
posted during office hours. yeah, you;'re not a paid shill ed! you're
not an astroturfer!

besides, korea, japan, and germany are allies. china is not. small detail.


>
> So while GM is clearly outsourcing a lot of stuff overseas, they are
> still as good as it gets at buying domestic parts (domestic = US +
> Canada).

assuming we're gullible enough to believe your numbers and that they
haven't been massaged like your frod rollover stats.


>
> I am not comfortable dealing with China. Give me an alternative.

i'll give you an alternative - stop shilling for a company sending
taxpayer dollars to support chinese jobs.


> You
> seem to have some wacko idea that Toyota doesn't deal with China. That
> is not true at all. See:
>
> http://www.theage.com.au/news/Business/Toyota-sets-up-fourth-factory-in-China/2007/04/21/1176697131427.html
> http://www.danmex.org/spansk/tekst.php?id=103
> Denso, Toyota' captive parts manufacturer has heavily invested in
> China.
> http://www.densocorp-na.com/visiononline/2006spring/s31.html
> http://www.densomediacenter.com/news/newsreleases.php?ArticleID=560
>
> There are many many references to Toyota operating in China. Is that
> OK with you?

er, sorry ed, but there's a vital factoid you're missing - you can't
sell in china unless you manufacture in china. ["free enterprise"
apparently.] but that does NOT mean g.m. has to IMPORT usa-bound
components /from/ china.


>
>> nomina rutrum rutrum
>
> At least credit the column you stole this tag line from.

i already have - but don't let that small detail get in the way. [btw,
i'm far from impressed it's taken your researchers nearly three weeks to
figure it out - you should hire some better ones]


> As I pointed
> out it is not proper Latin (or English)

actually ed, it is. but don't let your online translation services get
their panties in a bunch about that.


> but it sort of fits your modus
> operandi - screwed up stolen ideas that you didn't bother to check.

it beats moral bankrupts using taxpayer dollars to prop up dead
dinosaurs that outsource jobs to china ed.


>
>
> Ed

"ed the astroturfer"


--
nomina rutrum rutrum
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