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From: C. E. White on 15 Feb 2010 13:35

"jim beam" <me(a)privacy.net> wrote in message
news:O-udndKkgLSo8-TWnZ2dnUVZ_jWdnZ2d(a)speakeasy.net...

<clip, clip>

> so let's clarify your position:
>
> 1. do you think all complaints are merited?

Of course not. Do you think all 400+ complaints that Toyota received
directly were bogus?

> 2. what account are you taking of the idiot factor?

Even idiot can have problems with cars. I think the CHP guy that
killed his family in CA was an idiot, but that doesn't mean there was
not a problem with the car. Defect + idiot = much larger problem. All
companies try to make things reasonably idiot proof, sometimes they
fail.

> 3. do you think that complaints that end up being unsubstantiable
> should somehow be pursued, while those of other manufacturers that
> simply kill hundreds of people can be ignored?

The complaints don't look "unsubstantiable" now do they?

> because that's how you're reading to me.

I think you are operating under the standard Toyota practice of
sticking your head up you a&* and trying to defelct criticism by
attacking the messenger.

When Toyota indicated their records included 100's of complaints
regarding engine speed control problems, I think NHTSA should have
done more than buy a BS explanation that the complaints were the
result of bad publicity. If NHTSA and Toyota had taken these
complaints seriously in 2007 instead of trying to sweep things under
the rug, Toyota would not be facing the huge public relations
nightmare they are now living through. State Farmed warned NHTSA there
was a problem. I am sure the suits at NHTSA wish they had actually
looked into the problem instead of buying a half assed Toyota excuse.

Ed


From: C. E. White on 15 Feb 2010 13:38

"Clive" <Clive(a)yewbank.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:yn6Xu4KugXeLFwTM(a)yewbank.demon.co.uk...
> In message <O-udndKkgLSo8-TWnZ2dnUVZ_jWdnZ2d(a)speakeasy.net>, jim
> beam <me(a)privacy.net> writes
>>2. what account are you taking of the idiot factor?
> Personally, I've driven into another vehicle (4mph), and it was my
> fault. For years Id driven a car with no rest for your left foot
> when not using the clutch. When I got a new car, it had a foot
> rest so I used it, I was in a queue of traffic and as the vehicle in
> front of me stopped I thought I had my foot on the clutch pressed
> harder and pressed the next pedal for the brakes. A second later
> after hitting the vehicle in front I realised what I'd done, and
> luckily for me no damage to either vehicle. It came as a shock
> that I could have made such a stupid mistake, but it was not the
> manufacturers fault (Nissan). It was my idiot factor as you so
> kindly put it.

More than once in my life, I pressed the brake and accelerator pedal
at the same time. It happens, particualrly for people with big feet
and cars with closely spaced pedals. I am sure many of the complaints
lodged against Toyota for unintended accleration were actually pedal
confusion issues. However, I don't think they all were. Toyota simply
has too many complaints for this to be the only explaantion.

Ed


From: jim beam on 15 Feb 2010 14:27
On 02/15/2010 10:38 AM, C. E. White wrote:
> "Clive"<Clive(a)yewbank.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:yn6Xu4KugXeLFwTM(a)yewbank.demon.co.uk...
>> In message<O-udndKkgLSo8-TWnZ2dnUVZ_jWdnZ2d(a)speakeasy.net>, jim
>> beam<me(a)privacy.net> writes
>>> 2. what account are you taking of the idiot factor?
>> Personally, I've driven into another vehicle (4mph), and it was my
>> fault. For years Id driven a car with no rest for your left foot
>> when not using the clutch. When I got a new car, it had a foot
>> rest so I used it, I was in a queue of traffic and as the vehicle in
>> front of me stopped I thought I had my foot on the clutch pressed
>> harder and pressed the next pedal for the brakes. A second later
>> after hitting the vehicle in front I realised what I'd done, and
>> luckily for me no damage to either vehicle. It came as a shock
>> that I could have made such a stupid mistake, but it was not the
>> manufacturers fault (Nissan). It was my idiot factor as you so
>> kindly put it.
>
> More than once in my life, I pressed the brake and accelerator pedal
> at the same time. It happens, particualrly for people with big feet
> and cars with closely spaced pedals. I am sure many of the complaints
> lodged against Toyota for unintended accleration were actually pedal
> confusion issues. However, I don't think they all were. Toyota simply
> has too many complaints for this to be the only explaantion.

how many old people are there on the road? and why aren't we hearing
this about buick's. even when old folk plow into crowded markets killing
the crowd?


>
> Ed
>
>


--
nomina rutrum rutrum
From: C. E. White on 15 Feb 2010 15:49

"jim beam" <me(a)privacy.net> wrote in message
news:hYGdncTgf6GiPeTWnZ2dnUVZ_v8AAAAA(a)speakeasy.net...

> how many old people are there on the road? and why aren't we
> hearing this about buick's. even when old folk plow into crowded
> markets killing the crowd?

I read articles about old folks crashing all sort of cars becasue they
screwed up. Maybe you don't hear about an investigation of Buicks
crashing into things becasue there aren't that many cases related to a
single year/model. Just for grins, I did the following comparison
based onthe NHTSA Database:

2007 Toyota Camry (not Solara, not Hybrid):
Component VEHICLE SPEED CONTROL: 146 Complaints, 1 death, 16 injuries
Componet: VEHICLE SPEED CONTROL:ACCELERATOR PEDAL : 2 Compliants, 0
deaths, 4 injuries

2007 Buick LACROSSE - 0 Vehicle Speed Control Complaints......

2007 Buick LUCERNE
Componet: VEHICLE SPEED CONTROL: 3 Complaints, 1 injury

So what would you concentrate your investigation on? The vehcile with
171 complaints, 1 death, and 20 injuries related to unintneded
acceleration, or the vehciles with 3 complaints, no deaths and one
injuries (at least as reported to NHTSA).

Ed
Component:


From: Clive on 15 Feb 2010 16:02
In message <hYGdncTgf6GiPeTWnZ2dnUVZ_v8AAAAA(a)speakeasy.net>, jim beam
<me(a)privacy.net> writes
>how many old people are there on the road? and why aren't we hearing
>this about buick's. even when old folk plow into crowded markets
>killing the crowd?
I'm in my 60s and aware that my driving is not as sharp as it was 30
years ago, so I drive accordingly, driving a little slower, keeping out
of other peoples way like keeping left (as required in this country) or
right were I in yours, and by leaving our governments recommended two
second gap from the car in front.
--
Clive

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