From: N8N on
On Jul 16, 9:04 am, N8N <njna...(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 16, 2:34 am, Built_Well <Built_Well_Toy...(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Nate Nagel wrote:
> > > Built_Well wrote:
> > > > C. E. White wrote:
>
> > > >>  EdV wrote:
>
> > > >>> Is the 2AZ-FE considered a direct injectin engine?
>
> > > >>No
>
> > > > =============
>
> > > > The 2AZ-FE is a direct injection engine.  It does not
> > > > use a mechanical distributor, and the engine does
> > > > use a crankshaft sensor and a camshaft sensor, among
> > > > other things.
>
> > > "direct injection" typically refers to a very high pressure fuel
> > > injection system that injects fuel directly into the combustion chamber
> > > rather than into the intake runner or a throttle body.
>
> > > What you are describing is a "distributorless ignition."
>
> > > nate
>
> > ============================================
>
> > Very good information.  I enjoyed reading it, and you're
> > right that the Camry does not inject fuel into the combustion
> > chamber but into the "antechamber" in the cylinder head that
> > comes just before the valve.  That's what the manual's diagram
> > seems to show anyway.
>
> > But the 2AZ-FE /is/ a Direct Injection System.  Here's a quote
> > from the Camry's service and repair manual on Page EG-57:
>
> > "A DIS (Direct Ignition System) has been adopted. The DIS improves
> > the ignition timing accuracy, reduces high-voltage loss, and
> > enhances the overall reliability of the ignition system by
> > eliminating the distributor.  The DIS in this engine is an
> > independent ignition system which has one ignition coil (with
> > igniter) for each cylinder."
>
> > Also, the book "Auto Upkeep" says, "Some manufacturers call the
> > distributor-less ignition system a direct ignition system."
>
> > Maybe there are two sides with an honest difference of opinion?
> > Sorta like how API Group III oils are considered synthetic in
> > the U.S.A., but not in Europe.
>
> > However, the book says there are 3 types of ignition systems:
>
> > Conventional, Electronic, and Distributor-less.
>
> > The web site ProCarCare.com doesn't mention firing into the
> > combustion chamber as a pre-requisite for D.I.S.
>
> > Here's a quote:
>
> > The Direct Ignition System (DIS) uses either a magnetic crankshaft
> > sensor, camshaft position sensor, or both, to determine crankshaft
> > position and engine speed.  This signal is sent to the ignition
> > control module or engine control module which then energizes the
> > appropriate coil.
>
> > You obviously know a whole lot more about cars than I do, but the
> > 2AZ-FE does seem to be a Direct Ignition System.
>
> > Here's a link to the ProCarCare site with the info:
>
> >http://www.procarcare.com/icarumba/resourcecenter/encyclopedia/icar_r...
>
> > Britannica Online seems to agree:
>
> > direct-ignition system, or distributor-less ignition system
> > (engineering):
>
> >   description and use:
>
> >   Many automobile engines now use a distributor-less ignition
> > system, or direct-ignition system, in which a high-voltage pulse
> > is directly applied to coils that sit on top of the spark plugs
> > (known as coil-on-plug). The major components of these systems
> > are a coil pack, an ignition module, a crankshaft reluctor ring,
> > a magnetic sensor, and an electronic control module.
>
> > From Wikipedia's entry on Ignition System:
>
> > Other systems dispense with the distributor and coil and use
> > special spark plugs which each contain their own coil
> > (Direct Ignition). This means high voltages are not routed all
> > over the engine, but are instead created at the point at which
> > they are needed. Such designs offer potentially much greater
> > reliability than conventional arrangements.
>
> > A site devoted to the Honda Insight says this:
>
> > The Insight engine employs a direct ignition system similar to
> > those used on the Honda S2000 and the 1999 Odyssey. Separate
> > ignition coils for each cylinder are located directly above
> > the spark plugs.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Your original post said "direct INJECTION" not "direct IGNITION."
> I've never heard of a distributorless ignition called a "direct
> ignition" although I guess it kind of makes sense for a coil-on-plug
> type setup.  Now direct INJECTION refers to something completely
> different, as I described in my post.  Generally used on Diesel
> engines although I have heard that some mfgrs. have or will introduce
> it on gas engines as well.
>
> nate

here's more reading for you to get you started:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_direct_injection

that article seems to imply that the throttle plate is done away with;
I'm not certain that that is done in all implementations, but it's
certainly possible. Basically the engine would look like a Diesel
engine, but it would run on gasoline and have spark plugs.

nate
From: Hachiroku ハチロク on
On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 00:57:26 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

> but I need to clear out some of the toys.

NEVER!!!!




From: Ed White on

"N8N" <njnagel(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1e2c20ad-c15c-46c1-bd94-37d4dd5c35e5(a)79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 16, 12:38 pm, EdV <systme...(a)hotmail.com> wrote:

Think Diesel engine. Bigass mechanical pump driven by the engine.
No, it doesn't pressurize the intake air, but the fuel has to be
pressurized to significantly more than the normal 50-100 PSI because
it's being sprayed into the compressed air in the chamber rather than
into the intake, where it's spraying into air that's at atmospheric
(or less, under part throttle - or slightly more, in a turbo/
supercharged engine on boost) pressure.

As might be expected wikkipedia has a description - see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_direct_injection . Other interesting
references:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/12/wards_10_best_h.html
http://www.brunel.ac.uk/about/acad/sed/sedres/ee/cerg/recent/dige/

Ed




From: RT on
On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 23:34:01 -0700 (PDT), Built_Well
<Built_Well_Toyota(a)hotmail.com> wrote:

>Nate Nagel wrote:
>> Built_Well wrote:
>> > C. E. White wrote:
>> >
>> >> EdV wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Is the 2AZ-FE considered a direct injectin engine?
>> >>
>> >>No
>> >
>> > =============
>> >
>> > The 2AZ-FE is a direct injection engine. It does not
>> > use a mechanical distributor, and the engine does
>> > use a crankshaft sensor and a camshaft sensor, among
>> > other things.
>>
>> "direct injection" typically refers to a very high pressure fuel
>> injection system that injects fuel directly into the combustion chamber
>> rather than into the intake runner or a throttle body.
>>
>> What you are describing is a "distributorless ignition."
>>
>> nate
>============================================
>
>Very good information. I enjoyed reading it, and you're
>right that the Camry does not inject fuel into the combustion
>chamber but into the "antechamber" in the cylinder head that
>comes just before the valve. That's what the manual's diagram
>seems to show anyway.
>
>But the 2AZ-FE /is/ a Direct Injection System. Here's a quote
>from the Camry's service and repair manual on Page EG-57:

No, it's not.
Direct injection is just now starting to be used in some European
cars. They're need for fuel efficiency is a lot higher.
>
>"A DIS (Direct Ignition System) has been adopted. The DIS improves
>the ignition timing accuracy, reduces high-voltage loss, and
>enhances the overall reliability of the ignition system by
>eliminating the distributor. The DIS in this engine is an
>independent ignition system which has one ignition coil (with
>igniter) for each cylinder."

Direct ignition is pretty much common on any car these days.

From: RT on
On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 09:43:13 -0700 (PDT), EdV <systmengr(a)hotmail.com>
wrote:

>On Jul 15, 11:57 pm, johngd...(a)hotmail.com wrote:
>> Hee hee hee. 2AZFE "an advanced powerplant?" that's a good one.
>> Checkout the Audi FSI 2.0T for an advanced design with a flat torque
>> curve from 2000-5000 RPMs.
>>
>IIRC, The flat torque is because of the CVT transmission design and
>not the engine. I could be wrong.
>.

A transmission has nothing to do with torque output of an engine.
A CVT is able to keep the rpms at max torque at all times while
accelerating.