Runaway 2009 Lexus ES fiery crash kills family of 4
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From: Jeff Strickland on 17 Sep 2009 14:19 "a" <a(a)thisisnotmyrealemail.com> wrote in message news:Txusm.44242$Db2.35022(a)edtnps83... > Jeff Strickland wrote: >> "a" <a(a)thisisnotmyrealemail.com> wrote in message >> news:Z7ssm.44237$Db2.40699(a)edtnps83... >>> Mike wrote: >>>> I'm no Toyota fanatic but that story sounds fishy to me. >>>> >>>> I the first place what Toyota can reach 120 MPH, except while going >>>> down >>>> a >>>> mountain? >>>> >>>> In the second place EVERY vehicle has more brake HP than engine HP. >>> >>> I think you have an errant view on what brake horsepower is: >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower#Brake_horsepower >>> >>> Plus, plenty of Toyotas have top speeds rated above 120MPh, but the >>> Lexus >>> ES quoted in the article can do north of 140MPh. >>> >>> a >> >> I think you're right on both counts -- The Lexus can exceed 120mph, and >> Brake Horsepower is not a reflection of the power of the braking system. >> >> But, I think you miss the point, the brakes should be able to drag the >> car >> down to a managable speed so that the target one selects to finally make >> it >> stop is not so traumatic as drilling the car into a cliff, or off a >> cliff. >> If the brakes can drag the car down to 30, say, and then the ignition is >> cut, the resulting heavy pressure on the brake pedal will surely cause >> the >> passengers to be launched through the windshield if they are not >> restrained >> by seat belts. Certainly, the brakes will be vary hot, and might even >> require major service at the end of the day, but I just do not understand >> how a trained CHP Officer would have so much trouble with this car. >> Grandma >> might not deal with the same issues very well, but for some reason I >> think >> CHP officers are trained in high speed pursuit that ought to include high >> speed stopping. >> >> There are far too many fishy "facts" to this story. >> > > > I know, I just thought I'd point out the factual errors. I agree on the > fishy smell. Turn the ignition back to "Acc" or whatever it's called on > that car? Brake hard - pull up the emerg./parking brake? > > a The "key" is a button. I'm not sure how such a thing works, but the article states that holding the button for 3 seconds will shut the car off, but it could also lock the steering wheel. This is one of the many fishy parts of the story.
From: N8N on 17 Sep 2009 15:37 On Sep 17, 12:51 pm, "Jeff Strickland" <crwlrj...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > "a" <a...(a)thisisnotmyrealemail.com> wrote in message > > news:Z7ssm.44237$Db2.40699(a)edtnps83... > > > > > > > Mike wrote: > >> I'm no Toyota fanatic but that story sounds fishy to me. > > >> I the first place what Toyota can reach 120 MPH, except while going down > >> a > >> mountain? > > >> In the second place EVERY vehicle has more brake HP than engine HP. > > > I think you have an errant view on what brake horsepower is: > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower#Brake_horsepower > > > Plus, plenty of Toyotas have top speeds rated above 120MPh, but the Lexus > > ES quoted in the article can do north of 140MPh. > > > a > > I think you're right on both counts -- The Lexus can exceed 120mph, and > Brake Horsepower is not a reflection of the power of the braking system. > > But, I think you miss the point, the brakes should be able to drag the car > down to a managable speed so that the target one selects to finally make it > stop is not so traumatic as drilling the car into a cliff, or off a cliff.. > If the brakes can drag the car down to 30, say, and then the ignition is > cut, the resulting heavy pressure on the brake pedal will surely cause the > passengers to be launched through the windshield if they are not restrained > by seat belts. Certainly, the brakes will be vary hot, and might even > require major service at the end of the day, but I just do not understand > how a trained CHP Officer would have so much trouble with this car. Grandma > might not deal with the same issues very well, but for some reason I think > CHP officers are trained in high speed pursuit that ought to include high > speed stopping. > > There are far too many fishy "facts" to this story. I think part of the problem is these goofy new keyless ignition switches that require weird non-intuitive sequences to perform an emergency shutdown. Give me a good old fashioned key lock, on the dash please. I suspect we will be seeing more and more reports like this as the cutesy features that designers are incorporating into new cars simply confuse people in emergency situations. I've had a throttle linkage stick on me before (actually due to a broken motor mount, which I discovered when said throttle stuck) and it was a total non-event - I simply stepped on the clutch pedal and reached down to the bottom of the dash and turned the ignition key off as I did so. There's advantages to standard control layouts and automotive designers would be well served to remember this next time they try to reinvent the wheel. I agree that there should have been other ways to stop the car, e.g. using the brakes, shifting to neutral (and just letting the engine blow) etc. but in an emergency one is not always thinking clearly. nate
From: dsi1 on 17 Sep 2009 15:44 Jeff Strickland wrote: > "a" <a(a)thisisnotmyrealemail.com> wrote in message > news:Z7ssm.44237$Db2.40699(a)edtnps83... >> Mike wrote: >>> I'm no Toyota fanatic but that story sounds fishy to me. It sure does. My guess is that it was not the cause of the crash, more like a fanciful imagineering of an investigator. Unfortunately, these are the things that catch the imagination of folks and it probably doesn't matter much about what the real cause was anymore. >>> >>> I the first place what Toyota can reach 120 MPH, except while going down >>> a >>> mountain? >>> >>> In the second place EVERY vehicle has more brake HP than engine HP. >> >> I think you have an errant view on what brake horsepower is: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower#Brake_horsepower >> >> Plus, plenty of Toyotas have top speeds rated above 120MPh, but the Lexus >> ES quoted in the article can do north of 140MPh. >> >> a > > I think you're right on both counts -- The Lexus can exceed 120mph, and > Brake Horsepower is not a reflection of the power of the braking system. > > But, I think you miss the point, the brakes should be able to drag the car > down to a managable speed so that the target one selects to finally make it > stop is not so traumatic as drilling the car into a cliff, or off a cliff. > If the brakes can drag the car down to 30, say, and then the ignition is > cut, the resulting heavy pressure on the brake pedal will surely cause the > passengers to be launched through the windshield if they are not restrained > by seat belts. Certainly, the brakes will be vary hot, and might even > require major service at the end of the day, but I just do not understand > how a trained CHP Officer would have so much trouble with this car. Grandma > might not deal with the same issues very well, but for some reason I think > CHP officers are trained in high speed pursuit that ought to include high > speed stopping. > > There are far too many fishy "facts" to this story. > > > > > > > > >
From: Jeff on 17 Sep 2009 18:53 On Sep 17, 10:14 am, "Mike" <mikehu...(a)lycos.com> wrote: > I'm no Toyota fanatic but that story sounds fishy to me. > > I the first place what Toyota can reach 120 MPH, except while going down a > mountain? > > In the second place EVERY vehicle has more brake HP than engine HP. If you > doubt that floor the throttle on YOUR vehicle and apply the foot brake with > you left foot and take note of what happens. ;) > > "john" <johngd...(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message > > news:1d58c26c-4867-4f04-bad0-9d40b1fbf606(a)b25g2000prb.googlegroups.com... > > > So watch those mats! > > > "Toyota said Tuesday it will order all dealers to inspect their cars > > for mismatched floor mats after a mat was suspected of snagging a gas > > pedal on a runaway Lexus, ending with a fiery crash that killed four > > family members in San Diego County. > > > Toyota Motor Sales, USA Inc. planned to issue an order Wednesday to > > about 1,400 Toyota and Lexus dealers nationwide to make sure each of > > their new, used and loaner vehicles had the proper floor mats and that > > the mats were properly secured, said Brian Lyons, a spokesman for the > > Torrance-based company. > > > Customers who are concerned should also make sure they have the proper > > mats. > > > "If there's any doubt in their mind about the security and shape of > > their mat, go ahead and visit the dealer" to have them checked, Lyons > > said. > > > California Highway Patrol Officer Mark Saylor, 45, and three others > > were killed Aug. 28 on State Route 125 in Santee, a town near San > > Diego. The runaway car was doing more than 120 mph when it hit a sport > > utility vehicle, launched off an embankment, rolled several times and > > burst into flames. > > > The SUV driver was treated for moderate injuries. > > > In addition to Saylor, who was a 19-year CHP veteran, the crash killed > > his wife, Cleofe, 45; their daughter, Mahala, 13; and Saylor's brother- > > in-law, Chris Lastrella, 38. > > > Lastrella made a 911 call about a minute before the crash to say the > > vehicle had no brakes and the accelerator was stuck. > > > The call ends with someone telling people in the car to hold on and > > pray, followed by a woman's scream. > > > The family was in a 2009 Lexus ES 350 that was loaned by a dealer > > while their own vehicle was being serviced. > > > Investigators with National Highway Traffic Safety Administration have > > determined that a rubber all-weather floor mat found in the wreckage > > was a couple of inches longer than the mat that belonged in the > > vehicle. > > > That could have snared or covered the accelerator pedal. > > > "We don't know if the all-weather floor mat was properly secured or > > not," he said. "We do know that it was a floor mat from a different > > Lexus." > > > Lyons said most Toyotas come with carpeted floor mats, but all-weather > > mats are sold as accessories. > > > The driver could have put the car in neutral to disengage the engine > > from the automatic transmission, Lyons said. > > > The driver also could have turned off the electronically keyed car by > > holding down the start switch for three seconds, but that could have > > locked the steering wheel, turned off the headlights and cut power- > > assist to the brakes, Lyons said. > > > Lyons said the company had not had any complaints about mismatched > > floor mats. > > > In 2007, the company did recall all-weather mats from some of its > > Lexus ES 350s and Toyota Camrys after complaints that they could slip > > and trap the accelerator. > > > However, this crash was unrelated to the mats that were pulled from > > the market during the recall, Lyons said. " > > >http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20090916/AUTO01/909160398/1148/aut... There is a thing called an "Ignition switch." Turn off the ignition switch and the engine stops. This will slow down the car. Jeff
From: Sharx35 on 17 Sep 2009 18:56
"Mike" <mikehunt2(a)lycos.com> wrote in message news:4ab24394$0$5820$ce5e7886(a)news-radius.ptd.net... > I'm no Toyota fanatic but that story sounds fishy to me. > > I the first place what Toyota can reach 120 MPH, except while going down a > mountain? My 99 Camry 6 cyl. will go into the 130's. > > In the second place EVERY vehicle has more brake HP than engine HP. If > you doubt that floor the throttle on YOUR vehicle and apply the foot brake > with you left foot and take note of what happens. ;) > > > "john" <johngdole(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:1d58c26c-4867-4f04-bad0-9d40b1fbf606(a)b25g2000prb.googlegroups.com... >> So watch those mats! >> >> "Toyota said Tuesday it will order all dealers to inspect their cars >> for mismatched floor mats after a mat was suspected of snagging a gas >> pedal on a runaway Lexus, ending with a fiery crash that killed four >> family members in San Diego County. >> >> Toyota Motor Sales, USA Inc. planned to issue an order Wednesday to >> about 1,400 Toyota and Lexus dealers nationwide to make sure each of >> their new, used and loaner vehicles had the proper floor mats and that >> the mats were properly secured, said Brian Lyons, a spokesman for the >> Torrance-based company. >> >> Customers who are concerned should also make sure they have the proper >> mats. >> >> "If there's any doubt in their mind about the security and shape of >> their mat, go ahead and visit the dealer" to have them checked, Lyons >> said. >> >> California Highway Patrol Officer Mark Saylor, 45, and three others >> were killed Aug. 28 on State Route 125 in Santee, a town near San >> Diego. The runaway car was doing more than 120 mph when it hit a sport >> utility vehicle, launched off an embankment, rolled several times and >> burst into flames. >> >> The SUV driver was treated for moderate injuries. >> >> In addition to Saylor, who was a 19-year CHP veteran, the crash killed >> his wife, Cleofe, 45; their daughter, Mahala, 13; and Saylor's brother- >> in-law, Chris Lastrella, 38. >> >> Lastrella made a 911 call about a minute before the crash to say the >> vehicle had no brakes and the accelerator was stuck. >> >> The call ends with someone telling people in the car to hold on and >> pray, followed by a woman's scream. >> >> The family was in a 2009 Lexus ES 350 that was loaned by a dealer >> while their own vehicle was being serviced. >> >> Investigators with National Highway Traffic Safety Administration have >> determined that a rubber all-weather floor mat found in the wreckage >> was a couple of inches longer than the mat that belonged in the >> vehicle. >> >> That could have snared or covered the accelerator pedal. >> >> "We don't know if the all-weather floor mat was properly secured or >> not," he said. "We do know that it was a floor mat from a different >> Lexus." >> >> Lyons said most Toyotas come with carpeted floor mats, but all-weather >> mats are sold as accessories. >> >> The driver could have put the car in neutral to disengage the engine >> from the automatic transmission, Lyons said. >> >> The driver also could have turned off the electronically keyed car by >> holding down the start switch for three seconds, but that could have >> locked the steering wheel, turned off the headlights and cut power- >> assist to the brakes, Lyons said. >> >> Lyons said the company had not had any complaints about mismatched >> floor mats. >> >> In 2007, the company did recall all-weather mats from some of its >> Lexus ES 350s and Toyota Camrys after complaints that they could slip >> and trap the accelerator. >> >> However, this crash was unrelated to the mats that were pulled from >> the market during the recall, Lyons said. " >> >> http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20090916/AUTO01/909160398/1148/auto01/Mismatched+floor+mat+may+have+caused+deadly+SoCal+crash++Toyota+orders+inspections >> >> > > |