From: Scott Dorsey on
Observer <void(a)> wrote:
>Yeah but when you replace tires, a lot of shops use air tools. I
>don't recall any checking the tires with a torque wrench. I do agree
>with another poster that many shops over torque.

Some use the sticks, some use torque wrenches, some don't use either one.
Most will use torque wrenches if you ask them politely. Tipping helps, too.
It takes a little more time to do it right.
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
From: hls on

"Steve" <no(a)spam.thanks> wrote in message
> Standard practice these days is to snug the bolts with an air wrench and
> a torque-limit stick, then do the final torque-down with a torque wrench.
> Actually most shops have been doing that for 10+ years now. Time flies.

I have had discs warped on more than one occasion by the TorxStik approach.
They are NOT failsafe.

If you want to be sure, ask them to torque the nuts on with a manual torque
wrench, and specify that they use the star pattern suggested by most
manufacturers. Then you are sure.
From: jim beam on
On 09/18/2009 11:23 AM, Steve wrote:
> Observer wrote:
>> Yeah but when you replace tires, a lot of shops use air tools. I
>> don't recall any checking the tires with a torque wrench. I do agree
>> with another poster that many shops over torque.
> Standard practice these days is to snug the bolts with an air wrench and
> a torque-limit stick, then do the final torque-down with a torque wrench.
> Actually most shops have been doing that for 10+ years now. Time flies.
> With my own cars in my own garage, I just use my air wrench because I
> have a very good feel for the correct torque with that wrench at the air
> line pressure setting I run. Every so often I check myself with a torque
> wrench and I'm never off by more than a couple of ft-lb. But you can't
> do that in a shop where you grab a different air wrench every time or
> you change a tire. Also most of my cars are old enough to be rear-drives
> with integral hub-rotor assemblies instead of "top hat" rotors that
> slide over the wheel studs like FWD cars. They are far less sensitive to
> over-torquing because the hub/rotor assembly is so much beefier and
> doesn't have an alignment issue if you torque one stud/nut down too hard
> before the other side gets torqued.

indeed - one of the reasons the heavier more powerful accord didn't
transition to that style of disk for years after the civic did.

From: Jeff Strickland on

"Otis" <rev_otis_mcnatt(a)> wrote in message
> General questions which is why I included five NG's.
> I've actually had the car for almost a year (bought 9-25-08).
> The car had a mild steering wheel shimmy at 60-70 mph that
> I noticed driving it home from the dealership the day I bought it.
> The car had not been sitting on the lot long ( a week or so, being
> recently delivered), so I doubt there were flat spots on the tires.
> I decided to let it go and forget about it. Still, you don't expect
> this with a brand new car with six miles on it and equipped with
> Michelins. The shimmy pretty much stayed, but as I said,
> it is mild. I rotated the tires at about 6500 miles a couple of
> months ago, which is when the little Honda Maintenance Minder
> told me to (cross to front as the manual said).
> Since then, I've noticed that, along with the usual shimmy, it gets
> a good deal worse when I press the brake at highway speeds.
> I doubt very seriously that the rotors are warped, but that the wheels
> were somehow not completely balanced at the factory. And maybe
> crossing the tires at rotation made the effect worse. That's my
> guess.
> I took the car out to the dlership today, explained, and the guy
> wanted
> to check the brakes (he said three hours for some reason) and possibly
> *turn* the rotors. Why? I've never had rotors turned in my life;
> if they
> got too grooved I'd just replace them. Considering the time, and his
> talking about turning rotors, I decided to hold off for now. Do you
> think
> I should take the car in and have them at least check the balance
> on the wheels (free till the 1 year anniversary of purchase)? I could
> just see those guys working on the car, and driving off with it
> *worse*
> than before. I've had this happen occasionally over the years.
> And a-n-o-t-h-e-r thing.....
> I was recently talking casually to a guy who runs a body shop. We
> were near my Accord and he immediately mentioned that the gap
> between the hood and fender on the left was not the same as the
> corresponding gap on the right side of the hood. And sure enough,
> it wasn't, and very noticeable even though I never noticed. He said
> that was very unusual for Honda and even asked me if the car had
> been wrecked. Pic link below. There is sunlight reflection a
> little
> on the left gap, but you should still be able to see it. The gap on
> left is noticeably bigger than the one on the right. The hood
> opens and closes nicely and everything seems tight and right,
> but it does look kind of bad. What do you guys think? Should
> I complain to Honda about it? Thanks a lot.

I hate to say this, but I've gotta wonder at the suspension issues you
describe, and coupled with the body panel alignment that Honda normally gets
done with near precision, has your car been wrecked or dropped off the truck
or some other significant trauma happened before you bought the car? (I like
to think that if the trauma happened after you bought the car, you'd
remember ... )

The shaking when you apply the brakes is typically the result of warped
brake rotors. One would not expect this to be the case on a brand new car,
but warped rotors should be a strong consideration. Warped rotors can easily
exist without grooves, and in such cases, they can be machined true again.

You have a brand new car that demonstrated semi-significant issues the day
you drove it off of the lot.

If you drive on a straight section of freeway and take your hands off the
steering wheel, does the car proceed straight for at least one-quarter mile,
or does it veer off track to either the left or the right.

NOTE: If the car gently drifts to the right, this can be the result of the
slope of the roadway that carries water to the right shoulder. This sloping
can vary from one location on the freeway to another, so it would be
reasonable to do the test is several places and note any changes.

NOTE 2: When I say, take your hands off of the steering wheel, I'm not
suggesting you set the autopilot and climb into the back seat, letting the
car go on its merry way. You also need to be cognizant of the movements of
the other cars, and not ride down the freeway hands-free in traffic. Just
hold you hands above the wheel and let the car go straight by itself, if it
can. If the car does not go straight, then you need to hold the wheel again.

The shaking can also be the result of damaged suspension components, struts,
control arms, rack & pinion, and so on. It can also be an out of balance
tire, but this condition would not change simply because you applied the
brakes. Suspension component problems would change through the application
of the brakes.

None of the problems you describe is severe when taken in isolation, but
when they are all combined they paint a very ugly picture. I hope the
picture is not real, but if it is, you deserve redress. You describe a host
of relatively minor, and normal, issues that happen over time, but you
describe them from the very first day of ownership, and this is alarming.

I have owned several Hondas -- '82 Accord, '86 Accord DX, and '89 Accord
LXi -- all of them became high-mileage cars (over 200K). That's not true,
the '86 was t-boned on the passenger's side and was a total loss. Honda
builds excellent cars, but yours seems to fall well short of "excellent."

I'd be writing a friendly letter to Honda America explaining that your car
has had a shimmy from the very first day that has gotten worse over time,
and that the hood alignment is not right. Taken individually, not big
issues, but taken together is very alarming and you have to wonder if the
car has a history that was not part of the bargain you struck with the
dealership. Include the VIN number. The car could have "port damage" that
the dealership never knew about, or the car could have been out on a test
drive and somebody drove it over a curb. Lots of things could be true, or
not. But you have a host of issues that might be related to events before
you took delivery.

You might have a Lemon Law car.

From: hls on

"Jeff Strickland" <crwlrjeff(a)> wrote in message
> "hls" <hls(a)nospam.nix> wrote in message
> news:VP2dnUKDuNYDbCnXnZ2dnUVZ_t2dnZ2d(a)

> Having said all of that, I can't help but wonder why none of the Honda
> forums are included in your crosspost.

Because I dont go through and edit the newsgroups addresses, I guess.
Maybe my newsgroup supplier filters them. I havent a clue.

I dont have a Honda. My son is the Honda fan. My wife and I primarily
drive Toyotas now, have about 7-8 different cars on the tax roles.

I test drove Hondas the last couple of times we bought new cars, but they
had a harsher ride feel than the Toyotas IMO. Nice, but not my cuppa...

People like Sharx35 are probably best ignored. I have killfiled Mike Hunt
over many newsgroups.